racism in reverse

[MMATM]

I agree as well with BIC's description of "racism" as used in academia.
Unfortunately, the true definition of racism is not likely what was intended by the original topic. The vernacular use of "racism" is, as Sylvia stated, in reference to intolerance.

I am still wondering how "power + prejudice = racism" can be said to apply to specific whites, as opposed to whites as a whole (an ironically "racist" statement).

However, I will indicate that everyone, whether black, white, or any other color, is inherently predisposed towards racism at birth. We have to essentially "grow out" of our racism. This isn't a reflection on the parents, either. As human beings, we like people who look, think, and act like us. That's one of the biggest reasons for so many high-end positions being filled by white males, the traditionally "in-power" group. It is more natural for a white male CEO to select a white male as his successor than it is for him to select a black/Asian/Hispanic male, or a woman of any race. Hence the "glass ceiling" for women, and the need for "affirmative action".

In today's society, we love to claim racism in almost every aspect of our lives at one time or another. This ranges from entitlement whores demanding service after hours at grocery stores and playing the race card to government officials being called racist for daring to say that they don't support Barack Obama (without giving a "good enough" specific reason as to why not).

To side-track a little in response to Rapscallion's post:
In the history of racism, the primary oppressors of other nations have been upper-class English males. Not "white" males. Some of the first slaves sent to America, for example, were in fact Irish (and about as white as they come). Only later, when it became obvious that black slaves were easier to identify as being slaves (for obvious reasons) and less likely to attract the sympathy or even the affection of their masters and the masters' families, that blacks by color became the "inferior" race.

What does this mean? Hell if I know. All I know is that a lot of people nowadays are too afraid of being branded "racist", and so will go to great lengths to prove they're not. Sometimes to the effect of becoming "racist in reverse". Basically, until humans as a species have interbred long enough to eliminate all recognizable race characteristics, there will be racists on every side of the issue, as well as those who try to avoid being called such by reversing their racism.

[ebonyknight]

On a similar note, when did "Equal treatment" become "preferential treatment." For example, can you imagine the outcry if someone tried to start a "White Entertainment Network" or a "United Caucasian College Fund?" Yes, it would be wrong to have the money only available to white people, but isn't it just as wrong to have it only available to black people? There are plenty of people out there who need help with college, and the color of one's skin should not be part of the criteria.

Oh, how could I have missed this section? This should be interesting.

Lets start here.

http://unitedwhitecollegefund.net/

Where's the "outcry"?????

[Norton]

According to that page, minorities are eligible for scholarships from the UWCF as well, so "United White College Fund" is only a name, and not what they practice. It doesn't appear to actually be a whites-only scholarship.

We are hopeful that the brightest student with the greatest potential will have the opportunity to take advantage of the UWCF regardless of race, color, creed, sex, or financial status.

What's to cry out against?

If it's outcry against a whites-only scholarship you're looking for, there's the WHAM thread: http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?t=432

[Zyanya]

Basically, until humans as a species have interbred long enough to eliminate all recognizable race characteristics, there will be racists on every side of the issue, as well as those who try to avoid being called such by reversing their racism.

I am part Spic, Kyke, Mic, Polock, Kraut, Wop, Ruski, Redskin, Honky, Cracker, and Chink. Go back a few more generations, I am also a Gook, Nigger, Bohunk, Wetback, Guinea, Limey, Towelhead. I'm also a Yank, Americunt, and I'm sure I've forgotten quite a few.

My point should be obvious, but I'm sure some will deliberately fail to see it.

[miffed]

Here's an interesting articles regarding Honky VS Nigger.

http://www.racismagainstindians.org/...nnaCracker.htm

So whereas "nigger" was and is a term used by whites to dehumanize blacks, to imply their inferiority, to "put them in their place" if you will, the same cannot be said of honky -- after all, you can't put white people in their place when they own the damned place to begin with.

On a slightly different note:
I think often the attempts to promote equality only further segregate people and promote the wrong ideas. Affirmative action being one, but another is "Black is beautiful" used to boost confidence in blacks so they would stop trying to change themselves according to a white person's idea of beauty. Rather than saying "we are beautiful individuals" they only further reinforced what segregated them, the definition "black".

The idea of race needs to be dispelled, definitions only allow for things to be categorized and separated.

[Zyanya]

So whereas "nigger" was and is a term used by whites to dehumanize blacks, to imply their inferiority, to "put them in their place" if you will, the same cannot be said of honky -- after all, you can't put white people in their place when they own the damned place to begin with.

Now that is a racist remark.

[miffed]

Stating that white people are the majority is racist? What the quote means is that racial slurs are used to put minorities down and enforce the idea that they are inferior. And how can a minority put a majority in their "place"?

If a black person calls me a "cracker", it's not going to bother me. I'll laugh at them. Afterall, who are they to insult me? It's not because they are black, but because I'm not going to let someone else define who I am and try to put me down. On the other hand, if I were to insult a black person with "nigger", typically they will get extremely offended. Alot (not all) of black people seem to be quite sensitive to what white people think of them, and why? victim complex of some sort? It's almost as if they place too much power in what a white person thinks of them. By being offended they are giving into the insult and idea that they are somehow inferior. If a random person calls me an idiot I'll shrug it off, they don't know me so who are they to insult me. So if a black person is called a nigger by a total stranger, who the heck is that stranger to try and put them down?

[anriana]

Somewhat along those lines... why is it OK for black people to call themselves the N-word...but if a white person does it, it's racist? I don't use that word, but I can't figure that one out.

(harsh language) There are many words that have been used by one set of people as a slur and another as an term of familiarity- fag is the second biggest example I can think of, but there's also queer, oreo, slut, bitch, dyke, and many more. I have no issues with my friends using those words towards me in certain contexts, but I would take offense if a stranger used them. I've always seen the debate over the N word the same way - two black people can use it as a greeting or a term of endearment and automatically know that there is no racism intended based on appearance, whereas coming from someone of a different skin color that certainty isn't there. My high school was very racially diverse and there were no issues with the many non-black students who used the n word within their own social spheres.

On a similar note, when did "Equal treatment" become "preferential treatment." For example, can you imagine the outcry if someone tried to start a "White Entertainment Network" or a "United Caucasian College Fund?" Yes, it would be wrong to have the money only available to white people, but isn't it just as wrong to have it only available to black people? There are plenty of people out there who need help with college, and the color of one's skin should not be part of the criteria.

Can you imagine the horror and the outrage, if there were ever to be a "White History Month"? Yes, we celebrate dead (white) presidents, but can you imagine a month dedicated to important people in "White" history?

White is not a specific cultural identity the way African American is. White can mean a second-generation German or a tenth-generation French-Canadian or a hundreth-generation Bosnian. Furthermore, there are already plenty of TV channels primarily populated by white people and world history (at least in the States) would more properly be called the history of rich white european men. White culture and history is already dominant and celebrated 12 months out of the year; it doesn't need a super special month or channel.

All I can say to people is it is not a crime to be proud of your race. I am proud of who I am, where I came from, and who I am growing up to be. Just because I am proud to be white does NOT make me a Neo Nazi or a Hitler fanatic or a racist. If it's ok to be proud to be black, I can be proud to be white without being criticized and labeled.

I'm curious, what exactly does being white mean to you? What is the cultural identity you are proud of? I am not criticizing you, I just can't think of any specific history of my own that I would call "white."


I think this whole argument would be easier if "white" and "black" weren't used. It's much easier, to me anyways, to think of this while using the phrase "African American" because it takes it beyond the difference in skin color and highlights the differences in cultural history and heritage. Unfortunately there is no real equivalent for whites because German-/Irish-/whatever- American just get melted down to "white."

Did you know MTV is coming out with a 3rd channel, just for Spanish speaking folks?

I don't understand why this is a bad or surprising thing. Telemundo and Univision have been around for years and years. In parts of California with very large immigrant communities there are also channels just for people who speak Armenian, Mandarin, and Tagalog. I'm sure there are other examples too, those are just the ones I know.

[Norton]

I think this whole argument would be easier if "white" and "black" weren't used. It's much easier, to me anyways, to think of this while using the phrase "African American" because it takes it beyond the difference in skin color and highlights the differences in cultural history and heritage.

I've never cared for the phrase African American. An African American to me would be someone born in Africa, who later became a US citizen. Even if their parents or grandparents were born in Africa and immigrated, I could see using the term African American. However, I believe the majority of black people in the country were born here, and have had ancestors here long enough so that they should simply be called American - leave the African part out of it.

What of black people in Britain? Can't rightly call them African American. What of Jamaican immigrants? Black Americans, but not African.

My grandparents on my mother's side were immigrants, but I don't refer to myself as Italian American, or German American, because I am simply American. I've never been to Italy or Germany. I doubt many black people born in the US have actually been to Africa, either, so why the distinction in labels when it comes to our status as US citizens?

I have no problem being called white (though I'm actually a peach-ish color with some yellow undertones) in comparison to someone of darker skin color, so I fail to see the big deal in calling someone black in comparison to those of lighter skin tone.

[anriana]

I've never cared for the phrase African American. An African American to me would be someone born in Africa, who later became a US citizen. Even if their parents or grandparents were born in Africa and immigrated, I could see using the term African American. However, I believe the majority of black people in the country were born here, and have had ancestors here long enough so that they should simply be called American - leave the African part out of it.

What of black people in Britain? Can't rightly call them African American. What of Jamaican immigrants? Black Americans, but not African.

My grandparents on my mother's side were immigrants, but I don't refer to myself as Italian American, or German American, because I am simply American. I've never been to Italy or Germany. I doubt many black people born in the US have actually been to Africa, either, so why the distinction in labels when it comes to our status as US citizens?

I have no problem being called white (though I'm actually a peach-ish color with some yellow undertones) in comparison to someone of darker skin color, so I fail to see the big deal in calling someone black in comparison to those of lighter skin tone.

I'm not saying that we should go back to African American or German-American, etc, in permanent use, I was saying that for the purpose of this debate, I find it easier to think less in terms of skin color and more in terms of culture, ie the american history that I've been taught always focused on people of European descent, hence the need for a month for all of the people of African (and Latino and Asian and Native American) descent's history that gets overlooked. Semantics, yes, but it helped me to frame it.


And obviously AA was never intended to refer to people who were not African American, such as the examples of people you gave of people in countries other than America and from continents other than Africa.


I've always found it interesting that we use black/white yet yellow and red are still somewhat offensive terms for Asian and Native Americans.

[Boozy]

I've always found it interesting that we use black/white yet yellow and red are still somewhat offensive terms for Asian and Native Americans.

That's the first I've ever really thought about that.

You're right - its somewhat curious.

[BlaqueKatt]

I find it easier to think less in terms of skin color and more in terms of culture

just to stir the pot a bit.....

so exactly what would you classify one of my co-workers as-he is from africa, and an american citizen. So if we "label" him by(your ules of) culture, he would be african american-right?

He is the most racist person I have ever met-did I mention he is melanin deficient?
Under your rules(labels by "culture") he is african american, but not dark skinned, and he hates anyone that is.

should he be labeled "african american", should we make a totally new label for him-and if so why*?


*wouldn't doing so be racist as the only reason you would be doing so be due to his skin color, and not due to his culture which is what you "claim" to be labeling by.

[Zyanya]

Stating that white people are the majority is racist? What the quote means is that racial slurs are used to put minorities down and enforce the idea that they are inferior. And how can a minority put a majority in their "place"?

Last four companies I worked for were NOT owned/managed by those that are considered 'white'.

The statement is just another example of 'hey, the whites deserve the abuse, they are all slave-owning racists'.

I'm curious, what exactly does being white mean to you? What is the cultural identity you are proud of? I am not criticizing you, I just can't think of any specific history of my own that I would call "white."

I am damn proud to be a Spic, Kyke, Mic, Polock, Krout, Wop, Limey, Ruski, and Guinea. Europe and Asia are great countries with rich and occasionally glorious histories. I am proud to be a descendant of immigrants who came to a new world to pick themselves up by their bootstraps and make a life for themselves.

I'm also damn proud to be the descendant of redskins who fought to the last (and are still fighting) to save their cultures.

I am proud to be Irish
I am proud to be Welsh
I am proud to be Russian
I am proud to be Italian
I am proud to be French
I am proud to be Ukrainian
I am proud to be Swedish
I am proud to be German
I am proud to be Spanish
I am proud to be Jewish
I am proud to be Vietnamese
I am proud to be Cherokee
I am proud to be Apache
I am proud to be Moroccan
I am proud to be Egyptian
I am proud to be the descendant of folks who looked beyond skin color and ethnicity when making friends and finding lovers.

[miffed]

Last four companies I worked for were NOT owned/managed by those that are considered 'white'.

Your point? You've worked for 4 companies out of how many in America run by white people?

The statement is just another example of 'hey, the whites deserve the abuse, they are all slave-owning racists'.

You're missing the point of the article and my post. Pointing out whites as the majority is not saying it's ok to pick on them, it's just explaining why there is such a contrast in the reactions regarding "nigger" and "cracker".

[Zyanya]

Your point? You've worked for 4 companies out of how many in America run by white people?

Point 1 - Not all companies are owned by white people and the vast majority of white people are employees, not owners.
Point 2 - It is an insult to minorities to assume all businesses are owned by white people, minorities are fully capable of running successful businesses.

You're missing the point of the article and my post. Pointing out whites as the majority is not saying it's ok to pick on them, it's just explaining why there is such a contrast in the reactions regarding "nigger" and "cracker".

No, I got the point fully. Yes, your statement is implying that it is okay to pick on them by justifying use of a racial slur against whites at the same time you condemn a racial slur against blacks.

Which leads to point 3 -

A racial insult is a racial insult no matter who it is directed against. Stereotyping is wrong-headed at best and leads to making improper judgments and assumptions. It is wrong to call an Asian man a squint, a black man a nigger, or a white man a cracker, and all of these are EQUALLY wrong. To consider one more acceptable than another IS racist.