Shirtgate

[the_std]

So I'm shocked no one here has posted anything about the now-infamous "Shirtgate". Incredibly stupid name aside, I wanted to see what you thought about this issue.

If anyone doesn't know what this is about, here is an article about it. Long story short, one of the ESA scientists (Matt Taylor) instrumental in the Rosetta/Philae landing went on TV wearing a bowling shirt covered in half-naked women posed in sexually suggestive ways. The internet went bananas.

The argument comes down to two sides:
1 - This shirt is an excellent representation of the silent, unconscious sexism of the STEM professions. Most don't believe Mr. Taylor wore the shirt to be deliberately inflammatory, but it highlights a culture of men not having to think about how their clothing will represent them OR their fields of work. Women watching the broadcast may see it as a sign that they are not welcome in the STEM lines of employment.

2 - Mr. Taylor was free to wear any shirt he wanted, and it's silly that anyone is freaking out about it. Worse than that, the feminists complaining about his shirt choice are being hypocritical, as there have been many, many rallies and public displays about how women do not want to be judged by the clothes that they wear. This whole thing was blown out of proportion by the media and everyone should STFU and focus on the awesome science behind the comet landing.

I've tried to be objective in describing both sides of the argument, but I fear my bias may have shown through - I'm pretty sure you can tell which one I'm on.

What are your thoughts?

[mikoyan29]

I think people need to get a fricking grip. It looked like a particularly ugly shirt. But then again, everyone has to take every little thing and make some sort of message over it. Meanwhile, they ignore the bigger problems in life.

[the_std]

Meanwhile, they ignore the bigger problems in life.

So if I am upset about the sexist message portrayed by this shirt, I must be ignoring the Ebola outbreak and starving children in the Sudan and the homeless population in my city?

Take a second to think about how that sounds. People can be upset about this, AND care about the other things going on in the world at the same time.

[Andara Bledin]

I think people need to get a fricking grip. It looked like a particularly ugly shirt. But then again, everyone has to take every little thing and make some sort of message over it. Meanwhile, they ignore the bigger problems in life.

For women, this isn't one of the bigger problems, but it is one of the more pervasive and will be far harder to get around than domestic abuse and wage gaps (which have been proven to exist despite claims to the contrary).

There are pervasive and subtle levels of bigotry that are silently supported by a variety of unthinking, seemingly-harmless actions the continue to suppress a variety of disadvantaged groups.

In this case, the problem isn't that he was wearing a shirt objectifying women; he's free to wear whatever he feels like.

The problem is that the idea of women being objectified is so normal to his way of thought that wearing a shirt that objectifies women on national TV to announce something that'll go down in history and be remembered and memorialized didn't even spark a thought in his head that it might send the wrong image.

For him, women used as decorative objects is perfectly normal and not anything that might possibly send the wrong sort of message.

That is the problem. And people who continue to deny it is a problem are enabling it to continue.

[siead_lietrathua]

i'm in the second set of people i admit. it's a damn shirt. there are worse things to deal with in the gender war alone than a t-shirt. for example, the rights of transgender men and women (which some feminists even fight against, so much for equality.)

not to mention the whole "boys are stupid" controversy from a few years back where:
"Helen Grieco, executive director of the National Organization for Women stated "No, I don't think the shirts are cute. But I spend every day on life-and-death issues and don't have time for T-shirt campaigns."" emphasis mine. you know if it said "girls are stupid" there would be metaphorical riots in the streets, but things that make fun of men/ boys are allowed.

(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_ar...m!_controversy)

edit to add: there are things in media that are male stereotypes as well. but noone cares about every incarnation of the, say, dumb fat father figure a-la al bundy, or the loser geek, or the pigheaded jock, because they understand it's pretend. but they get annoyed at every slutty blond or virginal smart girl because "that stereotypes women". sigh.

as to people being offended, well i follow the stephen fry philosophy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq5dNcrHE8w

everyone gets offended by something. but we shouldn't live in a bubble or allow ourselves to have our freedom of speech/ expression grappled away from us over it.


@ andara,while i don't intend to get into the wage gap: noone on the opposing side says it doesn't exist. they say it is not as big as people are claiming, and reverses where women make more in certian demographics. they are saying gender cannot be the only determing factor when what really effects a women's wage the worst are sexual dimorphism (in fields like construction) or motherhood (which is a lifestyle choice)

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

At the end of the day, gender imbalance is an issue in any industry because it narrows the thought processes of it and tends to introduce a lot of unnecessary group biases. So the shirt is an issue in my mind, because you wouldn't be caught dead with it unless you were not expecting to be seen by women, or you were so stupid you expected everyone to have your sense of humor, or you expected guys wouldn't get mad. Yea, it's a symptom.

But on the larger issue, there are no "get men into nursing,accounting, teaching" and "more women plummers/electrician/traders" movements that offer extra help and support either. I think I'm comfortably at a point that until we talk about everything, I'm not interested in this specific cause. I'm pretty sure there are male nurses that could probably do with less people assuming they were a doctor, wondering what's wrong with them for not being, and wondering what extra perks they're getting because they're male when their bosses and coworkers aren't.

The issue is we shouldn't really have policies that encourage or allow gender imbalances to continue, but the only ones that people really focus on are the ones they view as being in elite fields. The thing about STEM is, a lot of those guys took a lot of shit to survive school to get into those. Yea, they're probably not going to be the most welcoming group. Yelling at them probably doesn't help. Incentivizing firms to diversify their workforce might (until you're up to like 30% in which case the preferential treatment stops being about getting the ball rolling so executives make more gender neutral decisions and more about telling them who they're going to hire.)

[s_stabeler]

personally, I think the shirt probably shouldn't have been worn, but for a different reason: an explicit shirt at work? not really a good idea, regardless of if it's men or women on the shirt.

[HYHYBT]

...wearing a shirt that objectifies women on national TV to announce something that'll go down in history and be remembered and memorialized didn't even spark a thought in his head that it might send the wrong image.

Absolutely essential here to know whether he got dressed with the intention of going in front of the camera or not. I once went in to work in my Customers Suck! shirt, not because I thought it was appropriate, but simply from combining getting dressed with no intention to go there with being called in for something brief that didn't require changing into a uniform. Perfectly natural that I didn't even think about which shirt I was wearing until I was already there and it was too late; thankfully, nobody noticed.

[TheHuckster]

Absolutely essential here to know whether he got dressed with the intention of going in front of the camera or not. I once went in to work in my Customers Suck! shirt, not because I thought it was appropriate, but simply from combining getting dressed with no intention to go there with being called in for something brief that didn't require changing into a uniform. Perfectly natural that I didn't even think about which shirt I was wearing until I was already there and it was too late; thankfully, nobody noticed.

There's no way he didn't know.

He knew he was going to work, and he knew today was an important day that his team and much of the astronomical community have been anticipating for years.

He had to know when he got up that morning that, even if there weren't going to be TV cameras, there'd at least be some people he's going to meet throughout the day that he never met, and are going to get a first impression of him.

I am not offended by the shirt, however, it's a rather tacky and unprofessional way to dress yourself at work, especially on a very important and once-in-a-lifetime occasion such as that.

[Gravekeeper]

Yeah, even putting aside the sexist tone of the shirt. My god is it a hideous, tasteless and unprofessional shirt. Just from a fashion perspective it is a crime against fabric. There is no way he did not know putting that shirt on this morning either. Wearing crazy shirts is this guy's signature thing. Though this is the first time he's worn something so tasteless.

Taking a moment to actually, you know, think this morning might have saved him. He knew he would be on an international broadcast. Hell he knew he was about to be interviewed. You don't just randomly select the Hawaiin shirt covered in women wearing corsets and leather pants sticking their asses in the air on your way to work for a god damn space agency. >.>

To his credit he did put a sweat shirt over it and apologize shortly after. But he probably should have thrown his hoodie over it before stepping in front of the camera.

[Greenday]

personally, I think the shirt probably shouldn't have been worn, but for a different reason: an explicit shirt at work? not really a good idea, regardless of if it's men or women on the shirt.

I am not offended by the shirt, however, it's a rather tacky and unprofessional way to dress yourself at work, especially on a very important and once-in-a-lifetime occasion such as that.

My god is it a hideous, tasteless and unprofessional shirt.

So, just to let you know, it's actually totally not unprofessional at all given the job. This may come as a surprise to a lot of people but most scientists don't dress up for work. I wear dress pants and a nice button-down shirt to work and I dress much more formal than most other scientists at work. And this is in a more formal lab. When I worked in Afghanistan, we would regularly wear our unit's various t-shirts that have been made over time and they all contain a pinup girl on them. Guys wore the shirts, women wore them.

He's working on a spaceship. Dress on a spaceship is really, REALLY casual. Wearing what he did on an average day is no big deal and totally acceptable. BUT, as some here have already pointed out, as soon as he found out he was going to be on TV, he should have changed. Hell, I brought a suit with me to Afghanistan even though 99.9% of the time I'd be wear t-shirt and jeans.

As for the issue of men wearing shirts like that...I don't see what's the big deal. It's pinup girls and not even as sexist as they tend to be. It's far from degrading. As far as women's rights go, this is ridiculous low on the list of things to waste time on.

[Gravekeeper]

So, just to let you know, it's actually totally not unprofessional at all given the job. This may come as a surprise to a lot of people but most scientists don't dress up for work.

I didn't dress up for work either. The dress code didn't apply to my shift. But there's a difference between casual and tasteless. You can be casual without wearing a Hawaiin shirt with a woman in a cat suit undressing on it. -.-

As for the issue of men wearing shirts like that...I don't see what's the big deal. It's pinup girls and not even as sexist as they tend to be. It's far from degrading. As far as women's rights go, this is ridiculous low on the list of things to waste time on.

Honestly, its the worse end of the pin-up girl spectrum just because its employing every horrible comic book trope ( Horrifying anatomy, bubble butts, globe breasts, etc ). So its not even GOOD pin up girl art. Its actually 70s sci-fi space babe B movie art. Which I guess is what he was thinking? Hey its space babes so its okay?

[Greenday]

Honestly, its the worse end of the pin-up girl spectrum just because its employing every horrible comic book trope ( Horrifying anatomy, bubble butts, globe breasts, etc ). So its not even GOOD pin up girl art. Its actually 70s sci-fi space babe B movie art. Which I guess is what he was thinking? Hey its space babes so its okay?

Or he's just into anime.

[siead_lietrathua]

Honestly, its the worse end of the pin-up girl spectrum just because its employing every horrible comic book trope ( Horrifying anatomy, bubble butts, globe breasts, etc ). So its not even GOOD pin up girl art. Its actually 70s sci-fi space babe B movie art. Which I guess is what he was thinking? Hey its space babes so its okay?

man.. now i want that shirt. love me some tacky space movies.

[Gravekeeper]

Or he's just into anime.

Nah, these are Western comic book tropes by far. In fact I could swear the shirt was drawn by Rob Liefeld. It has his telltale total disregard for perspective and the female pelvis. >.>