Shirtgate

[KabeRinnaul]

In fact I could swear the shirt was drawn by Rob Liefeld. It has his telltale total disregard for perspective and the female pelvis. >.>

I went and found a bigger image of it and... you have a point.

It even has Liefeld's tiny, squinty eyes. And feet are obscured in every pose.

[Andara Bledin]

To be quite honest, I don't object to the shirt itself. I think it's tacky and lacking any redeeming qualities, but that could be said about a lot of things other people wear out in public.

My only issue is the fact that when given a chance to go on international record for his entire crew, he didn't check himself at the door and think that maybe that shirt wasn't appropriate for general audiences.

A quote I rather like from an article about misogynists who came out of the woodwork to defend the shirt while attacking those who didn't like it (often spewing misgynist vitriol... because, hey, it's totally not about hating on women ):

His attitude suggests Eveleth and those who agree with her aren’t entitled to air their opinions on a matter he considers to be of little import in comparison to the scientific feat of landing on a comet—yet he fills a whole newspaper column with his opinion on the very same subject. It’s a sentiment echoed by the backlash directed at women who dare speak out about incidents of everyday misogyny: You are not allowed to be outraged at something I deem unworthy of outrage, but I am completely entitled to be outraged by your outrage.

Sadly enough, the individual being referred to is Boris Johnson, London's disturbingly myopic Mayor.

... they are saying gender cannot be the only determing factor when what really effects a women's wage the worst are sexual dimorphism (in fields like construction) or motherhood (which is a lifestyle choice)

I'm really sick and tired of people waving their hands dismissively and claiming that it's not really as bad as people think and the studies are comparing apples to oranges, and similar lies.

The simple truth is that when controlled for all possible factors, women make, at best, only $0.91 for every $1.00 an identical male counterpart would receive, and in the field of finance in particular, that figure falls to a staggeringly unacceptable $0.66 - just 2/3 of what they would make had they been born a man.

[Hyena Dandy]

You don't just randomly select the Hawaiin shirt covered in women wearing corsets and leather pants sticking their asses in the air on your way to work for a god damn space agency. >.>

Well I don't think it was random, from what I heard, it was a gift from a friend for his birthday, and for good luck, so I think it was, at the very least, intentionally chosen.

[SkullKing]

I don´t think there is anything inherently wrong in the shirt itself nor in it´s gender-swapped counte rparts, but in the context it was worn, it was very unprofessional.

[siead_lietrathua]

A quote I rather like from an article about misogynists who came out of the woodwork to defend the shirt while attacking those who didn't like it (often spewing misgynist vitriol... because, hey, it's totally not about hating on women ):

the part i have a problem with is, in issues like this, people will bitch about men being misogynistic while ignoring that a lot of the things the feminists side say are also misandrist. like labeling all men as stupid, women-hating pigs that only think about sex and etc.
and if anyone dares to say "whoa, not all guys are like that" then THOSE people become misogynists for simply pointing out misandry. if it's other women, they are "brainwashed" by patriarchy and don't know any better.
like hell, i never feel more stereotyped, belittled and like i'm being 'shamed' for being a woman than when a feminist is telling me why i should be offended by something that's simply a harmless item of bad taste.

is it that hard to say it's a shitty, sexual and inappropriate shirt without implying (or outright saying) that the people who don't hate it (or even like the cheesiness) must be woman-hating bigots?


(funny sidenote: firefox spellchecker knows misogyny. but misandry tries to correct to Melisandra. )

[evilfarmer]

In his defense, he had been at the site for 24 hrs and had a shirt for TV to change into. The reporter grabbed him on his way to change.

Really and truly I see it as a joke shirt that way to many people are taking seriously. If a woman had stood up there with a polo of shirtless male models no one would have said a thing.

How I honestly look at it is best summed up by the West Wing:

Ainsley: He would be able to, but that isn't the point. The point is that sexual revolution tends to get in the way of actual revolution. Nonsense issues distract attention away from real ones: pay equity, child care, honest-to-God sexual harassment, and in this case a speech in front of the U.N. General Assembly. So, you, [to Sam] 25% on the assessments for Category A. [To Charlie] You...I don't know what your thing is. [To Celia] And, you, stop trying to take the fun out of my day. With that, I'm going to get a cupcake.

[Andara Bledin]

is it that hard to say it's a shitty, sexual and inappropriate shirt without implying (or outright saying) that the people who don't hate it (or even like the cheesiness) must be woman-hating bigots?

Considering I said pretty much just that, as have a couple others, I'd say the answer is 'no.'

Though, the whole "but the other side does it, too" argument is a cute little false dichotomy when the comparison is one side leveling threats and hate speech towards the other, and the other side tends to just try to lump everyone that doesn't agree with them with the first side. There's a matter of degree, and the simple fact is that there is a too-large swathe of the Internet-going public who despise the idea of women as their equals and are all too happy to threaten the livelihood of those who 'don't know their place' and anyone who would support them.

As to those so-called feminists who don't actually believe in equality, who are, themselves, sexist bigots, they are doing everybody a huge disservice and that goes doubly so as regards those who truly do strive for equality for all men and women and others.

In his defense, he had been at the site for 24 hrs and had a shirt for TV to change into. The reporter grabbed him on his way to change.

It appears that he's got a polo shirt on under the other shirt. If he was on his way to remove the shirt in question, why didn't he just take it off and do the interview in the polo he had on underneath?

Really and truly I see it as a joke shirt that way to many people are taking seriously. If a woman had stood up there with a polo of shirtless male models no one would have said a thing.

A few things:

First, if the situation were reversed, it's likely that there would have been comments, but when a woman is the topic, those comments are often about her lack of fitness for her position, which is something that is rarely done to men, as men are the ones that women are supposed to be trying to be equal to, almost never the other way around. And, since men are over-represented in the industry, there isn't any discrimination to combat.

Second, there are places and times for jokes, and that was not it.

Last, but certainly not least, you can't take down a forest without focusing on the trees. You will never get equality in one fell swoop. You have to take it step by step, pointing out and eliminating successive problems as the situation allows until all that's left is to root out the last pockets of unthinking and institutionalized bigotry held by people who don't even realize that they are part of the problem.

[TheHuckster]

So, just to let you know, it's actually totally not unprofessional at all given the job. This may come as a surprise to a lot of people but most scientists don't dress up for work. I wear dress pants and a nice button-down shirt to work and I dress much more formal than most other scientists at work. And this is in a more formal lab. When I worked in Afghanistan, we would regularly wear our unit's various t-shirts that have been made over time and they all contain a pinup girl on them. Guys wore the shirts, women wore them.

I'm a software engineer myself. I know all about the casual dress code most employers, especially startups, have, and people wear funny or even inappropriate T-Shirts all the time.

However, when a big investor, client, or someone else outside the company is paying the office a visit, a memo will come out asking people to at least dress appropriately. Not necessarily suit and tie or anything, but at the very least don't wear tacky shirts, because that is unprofessional.

Again, I'm not offended or calling the guy a sexist ass like other people are. I don't know if he is sexist or not, but I don't think he meant anything by wearing the shirt. It was just a lapse in good judgement that I'm sure he didn't think would elicit the response that occurred.

Though, the whole "but the other side does it, too" argument is a cute little false dichotomy when the comparison is one side leveling threats and hate speech towards the other, and the other side tends to just try to lump everyone that doesn't agree with them with the first side. There's a matter of degree, and the simple fact is that there is a too-large swathe of the Internet-going public who despise the idea of women as their equals and are all too happy to threaten the livelihood of those who 'don't know their place' and anyone who would support them.

Both sides are equally extremist positions that, if believed by someone with enough power, can negatively affect the other side tremendously. An extremist misogynist who is in a position of power over women's wages and employment can be as damaging as an extremist misandrist with enough power who believes men should not be in any positions of power because they are all pigs.

Now, I do believe there might be some differences in the numbers for each side. I would be willing to estimate that for every extremist misandrist that believes that, there's probably two or three misogynists who are a threat to gender equality, but the beliefs themselves are equally scary, IMO.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

Any side that can attract crazy men will on average end up with the death threat spewing crowd.

It's not really a good argumentative position to insist that because one side does that they have no point. Quite often it proves true, but especially in gender discussions since the "twisted dude" demographic is always going to end up on one side regardless of the actual discussion academic or otherwise, it comes off as a disingenuous way to not actually have a discussion. It's also not shocking when women reflexively react in the same way on average (pile in on one side) because often it's just pretty simple tribalism on both sides. It's just women on average do not seem to go physical intimidation crazy the same way dudes do.

Then again, you could look at web shaming culture as perhaps an answer to that. It's an activity men aren't by and large leading and it is being used to damage people for saying/doing things that some people don't agree with long term consequences to the target be damned. It's a whole different type of intimidation/coercion. Even a nobody can become famous for 15 minutes for the wrong reason so watch what you say.

[Nyoibo]

I finally am at my computer again and can throw in my 2 cents, admittedly I don't know a huge number of specifics but I was looking at it like this, his friend made it for him as a gift, possibly for luck, he's landing a robot on a freaking asteroid, he's going to want all the luck he can get, then when interview time comes along, maybe he was meaning to change his shirt, but, and this is the important part, HE JUST FREAKING LANDED A ROBOT ON AN ASTEROID!!!!! he may have been a little excited and forgetful at that point, I know I would have been, oversight, accident, he then apologised, can we drop it and focus on the robot on an asteroid?

As a friend of mine who's opinion I respect greatly on such subjects said
"We can all stand to benefit by following Dr. Taylor's example; he was challenged by people who found his conduct offensive, and instead of contesting the issue or getting defensive, he chose to listen with respect, and respond with genuine humility and remorse at having caused offense in the first place. I think that's extremely admirable."

[the_std]

HE JUST FREAKING LANDED A ROBOT ON AN ASTEROID!!!!! he may have been a little excited and forgetful at that point, I know I would have been, oversight, accident, he then apologised, can we drop it and focus on the robot on an asteroid?

I don't think it's fair to say "GIANT EVENT OCCURRED and smaller event occurred at the same time, so it's ridiculous to talk about smaller event because GIANT EVENT OCCURRED".

1 - The existence of "GIANT EVENT" does not negate the existence of "smaller event", no matter what those events are. "GIANT EVENT" is still being hailed and celebrated around the world, and "smaller event" has done nothing to diminish that.
2 - What if I told you that I can still respect him as a scientist, I can stand in utter awe and admiration of the COMET (not asteroid) landing, and I can weep at the amazing capabilities of the humans who made this all happen... AND STILL be saddened by the shirt he chose to wear and the message that it represents?

No one here is calling Matt Taylor an asshole, or saying he hasn't apologized, or even saying that it detracts from the major contributions he has made to the scientific community. What is being said is that the shirt does a significant disservice to the STEM communities that he was trying to represent in such a positive light, and that he made a very poor decision when he decided to wear it on air.

I am not buying the "excited and forgetful" bit, because as has been previously explained, HE KNEW he was going on air. He had other options available to him, such as the shirt he was wearing underneath the tasteless shirt.

It makes me incredibly sad that so many people are upset about feminists being upset about this. This is one of the best, most coherent examples of unconscious sexism I've ever seen, and instead of saying, "oh, maybe that is a contributing factor to the low percentage of women in the STEM fields", they are instead saying that we are ridiculous for being upset because OMFG GIANT EVENT OCCURRED. I wish everyone would open their eyes and see that this is a small sampling of what women have to deal with on a day-by-fucking-day basis.

[EricKei]

Nah, these are Western comic book tropes by far. In fact I could swear the shirt was drawn by Rob Liefeld. It has his telltale total disregard for perspective and the female pelvis. >.>

'Twas designed by a female friend of his, apparently.

https://twitter.com/EternalArtEssex/...63703737212928

That doesn't make it any less of a bad idea, though >_<

[lordlundar]

the_std, the problem is that the "smaller event has done nothing to diminish that". You're wrong. There have even been articles put up that blatantly say "I don't care what you have done, you shirt is offensive." To put this into perspective, there are people who are saying that the efforts of 10 years spanning a distance that most people couldn't even wrap their heads around and a team of several dozen people to try a figure out how the world was formed, let alone humans, do not matter because of a tacky shirt. To add, the man has been harassed and threatened until he apologized, in tears no less, for the apparent crime of wearing said tacky shirt. For a number of those attacking him for it even the apology wasn't good enough. Hell there's even a fundraising effort to get the man a nice watch out of respect for what he's done and to show that not everyone hates his guts. That's being vilified by those same people saying if he accepts the watch than he MUST be a misogynist.

This isn't a case of being upset at the feminists for being offended, It's being upset because a number of those feminists won't stop until the man's life is ruined over an (ultimately minor) poor choice that he ALREADY apologized over. They smelled blood and won't stop until they get it and it's overshadowing a great accomplishment.

Yes there's problems and yes they need to be resolved, but perpetually throwing some very harmful accusations for minor mistakes just to make a point is just as damaging at trying to find those resolutions as the issues themselves. It's essentially saying Chicken Little is a good role model.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

There's something to be said for the misdirected target.

Anita Sarkeesian makes great points often because she doesn't focus o a specific game/movie. She shows them back to back which is a good way to show systemic issues. She's not perfect in her arguments and she will cherry pick, but quite often it is effective. As a guy who likes dark and gritty stories, I can freely admit that the content of those stories too frequently rely on setting up their world building by showing violence against women regardless of that necessity. Likewise, the best arguments I've heard for this shirt thing being a problem is on a systemic level.

The wrong way to go about it is to declare that a specific thing (in this case act) was necessarily misogynistic. Now the act COULD be misogynistic (if you have a microscope in the guy's brain), but when the collective rage of the internet is telling you that you are a misogynist, harrassing you, or in general causing you to cry in an apology, you're now losing the systemic message in a personal one.

That's my thing... I get the overall point but the response goes so far that eventually I'm getting more of a thought policing vibe than I should. If men are going to bully with threats and women are going to bully by making you a public pariah, my inclination becomes to ignore both.

[the_std]

[snip] For a number of those attacking him for it even the apology wasn't good enough [/snip]

So you are going to judge the rest of the feminist community by the actions of extremists? Just like in EVERY OTHER CASE, the ones being unreasonable (and I do qualify villifying Matt Taylor as unreasonable) are the loudest. But the vast majority of the articles I've seen on the subject take a more moderate view, such as the one I've been explaining.

This isn't a case of being upset at the feminists for being offended, It's being upset because a number of those feminists won't stop until the man's life is ruined over an (ultimately minor) poor choice that he ALREADY apologized over.

Again, extremists. And I would hardly say the man's life is ruined. True, he has been threatened and harassed, but he has not been fired, he has not been forced to relocate, his life is not over.

Yes there's problems and yes they need to be resolved, but perpetually throwing some very harmful accusations for minor mistakes just to make a point is just as damaging at trying to find those resolutions as the issues themselves.

I'm trying to get everyone to understand - minor mistakes add up to a LOT of sexism. Most of the sexism I have encountered in my life has not been outright "YOU ARE A WOMAN AND YOU ARE DUMB" stuff. It's been little things. A project handed to a male co-worker because my manager never considered that I would be physically strong enough to do it. Management teams not even considering suggesting me for promotion because I'm obviously going to go and have babies, and not focus on my work. Being asked during interviews about when I plan on starting a family, not about my qualifications.

Matt Taylor's shirt represents one of those tiny acts that are made unconsciously that makes a woman's life more difficult and less equal. Why is not okay to point those out, make them known, to make a big deal out of them? Again, the reactions of the extremists do not represent the actions of feminists as a whole.