Ye Olde Tippinge Threade -- With a Twist!

[EricKei]

I recently read a series of articles on tipping in restaurants -- including whether the service level actually affects total tip intake (their conclusion: almost never).

More interestingly, a guy who had a couple of restaurants out California way (where, apparently. servers get paid normal wage instead of the $2.13/hr nonsense) decided to change one of them to a "No tips accepted, period, but all meals have an 18% service charge added, instead" model; the other remained on a tipping model - both for the same stretch of time. The net result for you TL;DR types: At the no tipping place, service was better (because income was consistent), staff morale was higher, and they were more easily able to retain their better workers. All without raising listed menu prices.

It comes in several parts, and dates back to 2013. Worth a read.

Part 1 here: http://jayporter.com/dispatches/obse...rt-1-overview/

[TheHuckster]

The way I see it, we have tons of service-based jobs that are not traditionally tipped. That includes retail cashiers, supermarket baggers, fast food servers, etc.

If someone isn't doing their job right, you see the manager. The manager will listen to your complaint and decide what to do, whether it's retraining or even termination.

As far as I see it, tipping still has its place under unusual circumstances. I'll give a better tip to a pizza deliverer who had to walk through a downpour, or a waiter who was especially courteous. If they're just run-of-the-mill I'll give my standard 18-20% tip. Whenever I'm at a place where service is slow or something, I'll often joke, "Oooh, boy, I'm going to give you SUCH a 15% tip."

So, if the social rules changed so that we give a standard 18% service fee, I'm not going to bat an eye, although I'd still like the option to give a little extra if someone provided a little extra. And if I feel as though service was so bad I'd have given a poorer tip, then that's when I'd call the manager. In my life time, I'd probably have had done that maybe three times, tops.

[EricKei]

I like having the option, too. It is nice to see a practical experiment on the subject, though. The upside of the whole thing was that it greatly reduced stress on the servers, causing service quality to improve for everyone. If a customer did manage to convince/force someone to take a tip (it did happen from time to time), it was just given to charity.

One interesting thing the writer discovered was this: A certain (small) percentage of the customer base went full-on-Reddit/Youtube levels of Asshole on him for doing this. They felt that the forced removal of tipping took away their (real or imagined) "control" over the servers...Which is kinda sad. It seems that these guys' reason for tipping was much less altruistic. They wanted the servers (I got the vague impression that they specifically meant female servers, too) to dance for their whims...I had to restrain myself from shouting to noone in particular, "That's how things work at strip clubs, not at restaurants!" >_<

[s_stabeler]

I suspect the customer base that want to be able to control servers via tips are also the customer base you don't actually want. But yeah, if someone wants to make servers dance to their whim for the possibility of actually getting paid MW for their job? they are an asshole.(as a rule of thumb, if the customer effectively wants the person they are buying from to beg to be paid a reasonable amount? the customer is an asshole)

[Racket_Man]

I suspect the customer base that want to be able to control servers via tips are also the customer base you don't actually want. But yeah, if someone wants to make servers dance to their whim for the possibility of actually getting paid MW for their job? they are an asshole.(as a rule of thumb, if the customer effectively wants the person they are buying from to beg to be paid a reasonable amount? the customer is an asshole)

You would NOT believe how many "customers" put instructions for the delivery driver on an order. AND YES I mean literally things like "dance a jig". I can understand things like "go around back" or Knock LOUDLY or call when you arrive. NO they want us to be a little organ grinder monkey dancing his little dance.

Yes I know servers have the same problem.

I read a story the other day on the pizza delivery sub-Reddit (I think) that went like this:

Customer places an order. Order get made. Special delivery instructions state put a joke on the box or something like that. Store is busy so joke is not put on the box. Order gets delivered. Customer "CLAIMS" this is NOT their order. WHY you ask???? NO JOKE ON THE BOX. customer goes round and round with the driver and driver finally gets payment AND straight stiffed (which I suspect would have happened anyway been there done that enough times).

One of the things I WOULD like to see is proper mileage reimbursement given to delivery drivers for the abuse they do to their vehicles for their jobs sake.

[Canarr]

I found the statistics he quotes interesting - that it's actually in a server's best interest, if they want to maximize their tips, to snare as large a number of tables as possible, rather than concentrate on providing stellar service to the tables they have. Kind of shoots down that whole, "the hope for a good tip will motivate the server to do a good job" theory.

Honestly, I never saw the point. Restaurants don't require tipping in Germany, all service is included, and servers do their jobs, anyway. The reasoning behind the US tipping system remains a mystery to me.

[s_stabeler]

it makes sense if you think about it- tipping is, iirc, 15% of the bill for ordinary service, 20% for good service. IIRC, when I go out for a meal with my family, the bill is usually about £50 ( roughyl $75) which- if I lived in the US- translates to a $11.25 tip for ordinary service, or $15 for excetional service. In my experience, it's about 1.5 hours between me sitting down and me leaving. so, assume $7.5 per our per table for normal service, and $10 per hour for exceptional service. ( which actually works out pretty well with the assumption that you are paying for the service- you pay MW for normal service, and more for good service) That means that it depends on how many more tables we are talking about . (as a rough guide, you need 50% more tables to make up the deficit. So assuming exceptional service does 10 tables, the normal service would need to do 15.)

personally, i think the biggest issue is actually the tip credit towards MW. a server can be paid as little as $2.00 per hour before tips, and in the vast majority of cases, that isn't actually topped up if tips fall below making it up to MW.That means that the power is solely in the hands of the customer, since if customers refuse to tip, the servers don't get paid anywhere near enough to live on, not even counting that tax assumes you receive a certain amount of tips. As such, servers have to worry about if they'll get enough in tips to actually live on.

[EricKei]

I suspect the customer base that want to be able to control servers via tips are also the customer base you don't actually want.

Agreed. Every business has that bottom 5% or so of customers that really need to be fired.

You would NOT believe how many "customers" put instructions for the delivery driver on an order.

I would I've been both a server and a pizza driver in the past. At one Italian place, both! Never had someone try to refuse an order because the silliness was not complied with, however.

One of the things I WOULD like to see is proper mileage reimbursement given to delivery drivers for the abuse they do to their vehicles for their jobs sake.

Any store will just tell you to claim it on your taxes; it's easier for them if you have to deal with it all. Problem is, this requires a) that you Itemize instead of taking the standard deduction (seldom worth it unless you make a lot of money and have many things to deduct), and b) that you need to be prepared to prove it. A written, dated mileage log (start of shift and end of shift mileage) along with paystubs to prove you were working delivery during that time will generally sufficie. That'll get you 55.5c/mile or so off of your taxes.

Honestly, I never saw the point. ...The reasoning behind the US tipping system remains a mystery to me.

S_stabeler is correct. By Federal law, workers in situations where they can expect tips to make up a large amount of their income can (and usually are) be paid at a Minimum Wage of $2.13/hr, rather than the standard MW of $7.25/hr (??), or the state/local MW, whichever is higher. Note that workers must still pay taxes as if they were making the normal MW. The government assumes that patrons will *always* pay enough in tips every day to make up the difference. If they do not, the restaurant must pay the difference; however, servers falling short is fairly rare, and restaurants actually paying up is even more rare.

[Canarr]

S_stabeler is correct. By Federal law, workers in situations where they can expect tips to make up a large amount of their income can (and usually are) be paid at a Minimum Wage of $2.13/hr, rather than the standard MW of $7.25/hr (??), or the state/local MW, whichever is higher. Note that workers must still pay taxes as if they were making the normal MW. The government assumes that patrons will *always* pay enough in tips every day to make up the difference. If they do not, the restaurant must pay the difference; however, servers falling short is fairly rare, and restaurants actually paying up is even more rare.

Sorry, my post was open for misinterpretation.

I understand why the situation is the way it is. What I don't understand is, why there seems to be a serious lack of willingness to change it.

My point is: if the example in the OP were followed, and tips disallowed in restaurants, all servers paid according to normal minimum wage standards, then there would be no need to figure out the taxation of tips, since there would be no tips.

But one argument against such a change that I've heard frequently is actually: without tips as motivator, servers wouldn't be doing a good job. And that idea doesn't make sense to me, because over here, tipping doesn't make up a significant potion of their pay, and they still do their job.

Hope that clears up my point...

[Racket_Man]

.

Any store will just tell you to claim it on your taxes; it's easier for them if you have to deal with it all. Problem is, this requires a) that you Itemize instead of taking the standard deduction (seldom worth it unless you make a lot of money and have many things to deduct), and b) that you need to be prepared to prove it. A written, dated mileage log (start of shift and end of shift mileage) along with paystubs to prove you were working delivery during that time will generally sufficient. That'll get you 55.5c/mile or so off of your taxes.

Right in one. Right now I can not itemize my taxes (I hope that will change in a couple of months). I already have the requisite record keeping ie. all vehicle expenses (gas, maintenance//repairs, insurance, supplies), mileage records (overall and JOB related I record my mileage after each shift anything else is personal) AND detailed payroll records of EVERY delivery I make (straight from the store's POS) that is time/date stamped (actually 2 of them one daily and one 2-week payroll period).

[s_stabeler]

even if people can get money off their taxes for unreimbursed expenses, I have a problem with work-related expenses not being reimbursed by the employer:
1) why should the taxman effectively have to subsidise what should be a business expense? ( this is relayed to one reason I have a problem with MW being lower than someone can survive on- why should the taxman de facto subsidise the payroll bill for an employer just because they can't be bothered paying enough for their employees to live on?
2) it's not, IIRC, actually enough. Fuel itself costs roughly 10 cents per mile, Wear and tear is often far more. The simple fact is that reimbursement doesn't usually cover the costs of using your car for business use. ( all told, you need an average of about 50MPG to allow the reimbursement rate to cover your expenses to use your car for work)
3) related to #1: why should an employee need to subsidise business costs out of their own pocket?

[Racket_Man]

even if people can get money off their taxes for unreimbursed expenses, I have a problem with work-related expenses not being reimbursed by the employer:



2) it's not, IIRC, actually enough. Fuel itself costs roughly 10 cents per mile, Wear and tear is often far more. The simple fact is that reimbursement doesn't usually cover the costs of using your car for business use. ( all told, you need an average of about 50MPG to allow the reimbursement rate to cover your expenses to use your car for work)
3) related to #1: why should an employee need to subsidise business costs out of their own pocket?

Because it is legal to do so at this time because of the NRA National Restraurant Assoc. effectively lobbing the US and state legislators to keep it that way. That is changing as delivery drivers have brought and won MW wage lawsuits against corporation and franchises to at least get a better (not great) mileage reimbursment

[EricKei]

But one argument against such a change that I've heard frequently is actually: without tips as motivator, servers wouldn't be doing a good job. And that idea doesn't make sense to me, because over here, tipping doesn't make up a significant potion of their pay, and they still do their job.

Hope that clears up my point...

It does, no worries ^_^

Actually, that's what the article series from my OP/thread starter set out to prove -- and I'd say they did so. At the non-tipping restaurant, morale was higher, service was better, servers were under less stress to "over-perform" (so they performed better as a result!) and the "You'd better kiss my ass or I might not tip you" assholes just stopped showing up, for the most part. It was, arguably, better in every way for both customers and workers, and all they needed to do was to incorporate the consistent "extra" 18% into every ticket. No raising the basic prices; any tips given were returned if possible, and if the patron "tipped and ran," the money was given to charity.

[EricKei]

As long as we're in a tipping thread

Here's a video that explains how the US ended up as a "mandatory tipping" society to begin with.

[jackfaire]

As long as we're in a tipping thread

Damn you totally beat me too it I love his show