If you could write your own fantasy....

[Kheldarson]

the problem with a lot of the "magic items" such as in the case of Eddings is it begs the question...why not just use it?

In one of his series its this big blue jewel that is sort of alive and basically has god like powers...and I always wondered "Why doesn't he just tell the gem to bring his wife back? Why not tell the gem to obliterate the bad guy armies?" There's usually some half-hearted implausible reason why not.

Technically, in two of his series (if you can't sequel series as being part of the same series, otherwise four), you have that question. And in the case of the first, it's because you have a Sir Percival hero. Garion is blastedly dumb, and when he gets the Orb, it completely keeps his head feeling like it's wrapped in wool for a while. Kind of hard to use a weapon effectively there. Plus, it's level of awareness is child-like, as noted several places. Would you want to command an all-powerful child to do something? Or keep it limited to simple uses?

In the other, it's also noted that the Bhelliom is very aware, and won't let itself be used unless effectively tortured.

So there you go. Answers. And that's what you have to do in fantasy. Give plausible answers for why you can't just go *snap* and everything's fixed. Wouldn't be an adventure if you could, now would it?

[jackfaire]

It actually is being done in some graphic novels and newer books, about damn time but still often is avoided.

The heroes don't think that "sinking to the bad guy's level" makes them evil. They realize that the true difference between them and the bad guy is that the bad guy is out for himself while the hero is trying to protect others and uses every dirty trick in the book.

Dying because you refused to fight dirty is considered stupid not noble.

In addition to the previous one. Being noble and not fighting dirty doesn't some how make you win like a magic bullet. "Because I refused to stab X in the back his henchmen who are themselves evil have a change of heart and become good guys" The only thing that credibly had a henchman go good was The Incredibles because it can be explained that the Syndrome's assistant didn't go good she merely thought "Shit evil guy is gonna get me killed he is crazy so freeing good guy who can stop him since that is in my selfish mind's best interest."

That is my biggest complaint in fantasy is that the evil guys are allowed to do things that are classed as "good" but the good guys can never do "bad"

If anyone in real life was like "You know your right I am here to stop you from killing/raping/enslaving these people but the honorable thing is to put down my loaded gun and fight you hand to hand."

The bad guy would then shoot the hero and the people enslaved would spit on his corpse while being put in chains.

Honestly there is no bad guy or good guy. I get that having them makes for good movies and Books but still at least have the good guy win realistically and not through last minute deus ex machina that stretch the world to unbelievability.

[Andara Bledin]

The only thing that credibly had a henchman go good was The Incredibles because it can be explained that the Syndrome's assistant didn't go good she merely thought "Shit evil guy is gonna get me killed he is crazy so freeing good guy who can stop him since that is in my selfish mind's best interest."

Mirage did a heel face turn because Syndrome did something that was just way too far outside of her comfort zone. She had no problem with him going after adult heroes and eliminating them, but when he showed the same level of glee for eliminating a heroes wife and kids, he crossed a line for her.

The whole good guy can't do questionable things and bad guys can do anything they want dichotomy is a pretty common fall-back for when an author either doesn't know how to progress along a certain path in a more realistic manner or otherwise doesn't really know their own hero and is using a 'template' instead.

That's one of the reasons that I like the works by Lois McMaster Bujold and Jim Butcher. Their heroes have no compunction about using whatever is at hand to get the job done while not compromising their own principles.

^-.-^

[jackfaire]

Mirage did a heel face turn because Syndrome did something that was just way too far outside of her comfort zone. She had no problem with him going after adult heroes and eliminating them, but when he showed the same level of glee for eliminating a heroes wife and kids, he crossed a line for her.

*Nods* and the wife and kids thing amusingly is almost never shown to be as big a problem for bad guys as it is in real life. Most neighborhoods I have ever lived in where gangs were a problem they had simple rules,

1) If you stayed uninvolved they left you out of whatever was gong on.

2) Women and Children are sacred and left alone. In fact anyone messing with them will meet a messy end.

I don't approve of gangs and the like but the thing many works of fiction leave out is that even "bad guys" have a level of nobility and personal limits they will not cross.

Your right authors like Jim Butcher respect that.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I want to see a heroine who's either butch or plain, and who turned to fighting for a reason other than to get revenge on the evil guy who killed/kidnapped her boyf.

.

I don't write fantasy, I write a western web series. And my heroine is plain, mousy, shy, and has self esteem issues. And she's not much into fighting.

My hero, who can be a dick, has asthma and the bad guys think they're the good guys. And in some ways, they can be. (one of the best comments I got was someone who said "I think I could actually have a drink with that guy.")

There are no wizards.

A really well written bad guy, in my opinion, ISN'T a bad guy. Black and white cookie cutter characters are boring.

[jackfaire]

A really well written bad guy, in my opinion, ISN'T a bad guy. Black and white cookie cutter characters are boring.

*nods* Exactly true Evil doesn't think it's being evil that's what makes it so insidious. It's like the parents who say, "Well sure we tortured our child we needed to make them stop being (insert behavior they consider undesirable)"

Great example of this in the Bedlam's Bard series by Mercedes Lackey Eric Banyon's parents prided themselves on having and being the best of the best so they had Eric and groomed him to be the best at playing Flute. Nearly destroyed him as a person but that didn't matter to them they were trying to be the best. They did the same to his younger brother and at no time did it even occur to them that they were doing wrong.

They even gave Eric's enemies power over him because blood trumps his Bard status so if your parent asks the person to do something they can violate all protections you have to do it.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

One of my favorite movies is The Unforgiven because of the way the characters are written. There are no bad guys. There are no good guys. You could tell that same story from another point of view and come up with a completely different story.

Last of the Mohicans is more black and white, but you could technically do the same thing with that movie. Tell it from Magua's point of view and all of a sudden, you aren't rooting for who you think.

[jackfaire]

I always thought it would be cool if you did it in perspective. The reason your seeing a bad guy or a bad guy is because of perspective.

You empathize with the main character. For example if a girl leaves him for another guy your mad about it. Doesn't matter the other guy is better for the girl or that you were kind of a jerk to her it's the "why did you screw over my buddy" reflex.

I think what would be fascinating would be to film a movie twice and release both copies. One version is from the POV of Guy 1 with Guy 2 looking like the bad guy. Second version is from the POV of Guy 2 with Guy 1 looking like the bad guy.

The key don't release them in the same cities. For example 12 cities get Version one and another 12 cities get Version 2. People all over the country will be arguing over who is the bastard evil guy and neither side will truly be right then announce that there were two versions and put them both on the DVD release.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Oh, that is really a brilliant idea about the movies. That would be marketing genius. How fun would that be?

I actually sometimes rewrite the same chapter from a different perspective. I love stuff like that, so it's a lot of fun for me to take the exact same dialog and switch POV's on it.

I tend to write inside character's heads very deeply, and my chapters are roughly a thousand words a pop, so the scenes are not really long. So I can do that without bogging the story down. And the readers have fun with it, too. Doing an entire movie release like that would be epic.

[Hyena Dandy]

The heroes don't think that "sinking to the bad guy's level" makes them evil. They realize that the true difference between them and the bad guy is that the bad guy is out for himself while the hero is trying to protect others and uses every dirty trick in the book.

Sometimes, a character is defined by his following certain rules. Or at least in part defined by it. Take Batman, for instance. Batman does not kill, and he does not use guns. Even when that would help him do his job. That is a big part of the character.

Batman has sworn to eliminate crime, as a result of the murder (by gun) of his parents. So, he ties the three (killing, guns, and crime) together.

A good writer, though, will show the "I won't sink to the bad guy's level" as having some negative effects. Batman: Arkham Asylum, for example, shows that the early in the game refusal to kill Joker when he had a chance leading to, well, a hell of a lot of shit going down.

If it helps examine the character, its a good thing to have. But it can't just be "This is what heroes do." unless "Doing what heroes do" is a part of the character.

[jackfaire]

Sometimes, a character is defined by his following certain rules. Or at least in part defined by it. Take Batman, for instance. Batman does not kill, and he does not use guns. Even when that would help him do his job. That is a big part of the character.

This was subverted once not in the Batman comic book but rather in one of the Graphic Novels about The Authority there were cracks in reality allowing other realities to slip through and one reality was full of super villains because they had killed all of the superheros that were unwilling to kill even to defend their own lives.

That is the part of the "don't do what the bad guys do" that I never got.

Even the cops in a comic book universe never seem to actually kill anyone. "We pulled our guns and fired them but the evil bad guy was just too quick or our aim sucks"

There are some superheros where things like don't use guns makes sense.

Batman he uses shadows and darkness. Guns would not be useful would actually be a hinderance.

Superman well duh he has a laser gun in his eyes and he doesn't have to kill the guy trying to kill him because being shot at by bullets isn't typically life threatening to him.

In those cases it makes sense but it bothers me when characters cling to "don't do certain actions" so hard that if it weren't for some contrived intervention the character would lose.

To me it's the banana peel moment. The character can't "cheat" so the writers will do it for them have some other random person drop a banana peel that of course the bad guy steps on.

[Gravekeeper]

The last fantasy novel I wrote ( its not published, don't get your hopes up ;p ) the hero was capable but in over his head and being manipulated left right and center. He could handle himself in a fight well enough, but they were fights and he rarely walked away calm or intact. He also rarely had a fight that was actually to his advantage as his own fighting style was ill-suited for the situation he was in.

I also didn't really have good guys or bad guys, just motivations. There wasn't even an epic final battle or anything. -.-

My writing has come quite a ways since then though, and my next novel will be...interesting me thinks. And it will be published. Even if I have to sleep my way into a publishing deal. ;p

[Sleepwalker]

Gravekeeper... writes?

As in, Writes?

/swoon

[Gravekeeper]

Gravekeeper... writes?

As in, Writes?

/swoon

Hell, the first two were weekly series I wrote online. But I have long since destroyed any evidence of them anywhere on the web. Not even Archive.org can find them. Muahaha....?

That was years ago though. Not really comparable to what I write nowadays. I was young, naive and bright eyed back then. ;p

[Sleepwalker]

Meh, feel no shame. The goback machine can still bring up video game fanfic I wrote at the ripe old age of 11.