That Fine Line Between Chivalry and Disrespect

[Andara Bledin]

Somebody saying that's not the reason says nothing of the implications or appearance of the act itself.

And, no, we're not saying that demeaning women is the reason people do it; demeaning women is one of the results of people doing it, regardless of intent. It's one of those unintended consequences that most people never even think about and others refuse to believe despite some of those affected outright stating that they feel demeaned by such treatment.

Treating people with respect "because of their sex" is the very definition of sexism. As soon as a determination is made where if they're one sex they get treated one way and if they're another sex they get treated a different way, it's sexist. Period. You can't argue against that without some seriously painful mental gymnastics and/or outright dishonesty.

And, logically following, if you treat some people respectfully because of their sex, then there must be people that you choose to not treat with respect because they aren't that sex. Because if that doesn't happen, then the first statement is false. And if the first statement isn't false, then you're kind of a jerk for choosing to not treat some people with respect just because they have the wrong equipment.

^-.-^

[siead_lietrathua]

but you can treat people with respect because of their sex. you can treat women with respect because they are women AND treat men with respect because they are men. it's not a one-or-the-other choice.
respecting women doesnt automatically mean that men will be disrespected and visa versa.

as to feeling demeaned by how someone treats you, i heard a saying once, and this is badly phrasing it, but noone can make you feel a certian way without your permission. another way of putting it is, you choose how to react to the world around you. i'm not going to stop being polite to people, men or women, because someone might find it personally offensive. that's ruining a whole lot of niceness to a whole lot of other people.

hubs and i were talking about it, hence the edit. he and i basically came to the conclusion that is someone assumes people are doing nice things to them for sexist reasons, then they have some self-esteem issues to work out. this isn't for the blatant sexism (people who say take something heavy from you while sneering that it's too much for a girl) but for the overreacting to everyday politeness from other people.

[HYHYBT]

maybe that's why i'm having such a hard time with it. i keep seeing posts about how it's done to demean woman but the entire culture i grew up in was one of treating women with respect. and if treating people with respect because of their sex does not a sexist make.

Thank you.

Treating people with respect "because of their sex" is the very definition of sexism.

Yes, but that's not really what's going on in any example I can find in this thread. It's not that people are being polite or respectful to women and not to men. It's that the rules that many people have learned about what constitutes respectful treatment are different in some regards depending on whether the other person is male or female. It's (and I've been trying to say this all thread, but might as well have been speaking rather than typing for all the good it's done) a matter of etiquette, nothing more or less, and has no *inherent* meaning beyond itself. There doesn't HAVE to be a good reason for it, any more than there is a good reason you use one fork rather than another. Saying it shouldn't be a certain way is one thing; denouncing people as sexist for trying to be nice to people is quite another.

[the_std]

Yes, but that's not really what's going on in any example I can find in this thread.

I'm sorry, HYHYBT, but did you read my example? My ex did all of those things specifically for women because he was convinced we needed his help, EVEN WHEN WE TOLD HIM HE DIDN'T. Running ahead to hold a door open for a woman while intentionally letting a door shut in a man's face is sexism, pure and simple, even if his motives were positive. Treating us differently, no matter the intention, based on which genitals one has, is sexism. People try to hand-wave it away by calling it respect, but any action you would impart on someone with a vagina that you would not equally impart on a man in the same situation is sexism, even if you don't mean it in a negative way.

Please note, and I know Andara has said this multiple times, that if you are treating everyone the same (respect for women AND respect for men, even if the situations to display this respect don't come up equally), it is not sexism, it is courtesy. I'm not sure how else this can be said to get it through.

Saying it shouldn't be a certain way is one thing; denouncing people as sexist for trying to be nice to people is quite another.

It's all well and good to think that it's the same as a preference in cutlery, but when you've experienced it, you know that this kind of institutionalized sexism is, at its core, a lot less hunky-dory/live-and-let-live and a lot more condescending, belittling and down-right offensive. In my example, the way my ex treated me was incredibly belittling. This was made worse by the fact that he genuinely thought he was helping and didn't understand when I tried to explain to him that I didn't need him to do those things - being a female doesn't rob me of my ability to take care of myself. Whether this is something that is taught or learned doesn't really matter - the fact that it's there needs to go away.

You might see it as "extra courtesy", but these specific times when I've been the target of 'chivalry' and not just people being nice are an ugly reminder that I'm not taken as seriously as my male counterparts because of my genitals.

[Canarr]

First, blame-shifting is lousy debate form. "You started it" is never useful for advancing anything.

I'm not following. Where, exactly, was I blame-shifting? I was merely pointing out that the reason for the existing miscommunication in this discussion shouldn't be blamed entirely on everybody else.

There's a world of difference in attacking what was posted versus attacking the people who posted it; it's written into the very site rules.

That may be. But when attacking what was posted is, basically, saying "You're idiots for not getting this!" then that difference is kinda... nonexistant.

That's simple; this issue pisses me off to the point where I have difficulty thinking straight. There's a reason that my original book of a rant was never posted; it was even less on point than what I did put.

The fact that this issue pisses you off is noticeable, believe me I'm just wondering why, exactly? It seems unlikely that this is something you just noticed this week, so: what prompted this thread? What was the last straw?

[Gravekeeper]

I'm sorry, HYHYBT, but did you read my example? My ex did all of those things specifically for women because he was convinced we needed his help, EVEN WHEN WE TOLD HIM HE DIDN'T. Running ahead to hold a door open for a woman while intentionally letting a door shut in a man's face is sexism, pure and simple, even if his motives were positive. Treating us differently, no matter the intention, based on which genitals one has, is sexism. People try to hand-wave it away by calling it respect, but any action you would impart on someone with a vagina that you would not equally impart on a man in the same situation is sexism, even if you don't mean it in a negative way.

But see, this is whole problem here and goes back to my original point. Andara is raging over a remarkably specific set of criteria and in doing so inadvertantly miffed every guy present that was raised to be a proper gentlemen as it were. A criteria so specific as to be difficult to observe in the wild.

Wedging something into the technical definition of sexism does not automatically make it horribly evil. It doesn't automatically become Super Bad(tm) just because you've managed to glue a negative label too it.

We are all guilty on some level of some sort of -ism. Anyone that claims otherwise is completely full of shit. Nobody is 100% neutral unless they were raised in a complete social vacuum. The difference is the motivation behind the actions in question. I treat everyone with respect. But yes, I treat men and women with different kinds of respect. Because they are men and women. That's how I was raised. By a woman. I have had a sole and female parent since I was 2.

I'm assuming by the responses in this thread so far that many of the males here were raised in a similar fashion, and as such, like me, were miffed if not offended at the implication that their mom is a terrible sexist person. And that they are somehow being terrible people by minding the manners they were taught.

If someone rushes ahead to open doors for women, but will slam a door in a guy's face. They are an asshole and the problem there is much broader in scope than mere sexism. But in the process of tossing the sexism paint on that asshole, there's been an awful lot of splatter onto the rest of us in this thread. Who are just guys that were raised to be proper gentlemen and treat women with respect.

[Andara Bledin]

Andara is raging over a remarkably specific set of criteria and in doing so inadvertantly miffed every guy present that was raised to be a proper gentlemen as it were.

If you act sexist, I'm going to call you on it. Whitewashing said sexism with the label of "being a proper gentleman" makes me think that the person doing so knows that their behavior isn't honestly proper and is finding excuses for why they aren't at fault for being that way.

It doesn't automatically become Super Bad(tm) just because you've managed to glue a negative label too it.

Not being super bad doesn't make it not bad, nor does it make it not an issue.

Just because there are major issues to be dealt with does not excuse dismissing minor ones.

We are all guilty on some level of some sort of -ism. Anyone that claims otherwise is completely full of shit.

Yup. We all are. I tend to have issues with racism. And when it happens, I recognize that I have those issues and do my best to correct my behavior, not try to excuse it just because "everybody does it" or "nobody gets hurt by it." I recognize my shortcomings and do what I can to be better.

I'm assuming by the responses in this thread so far that many of the males here were raised in a similar fashion, and as such, like me, were miffed if not offended at the implication that their mom is a terrible sexist person.

Most people's moms are products of their times. Even in this "enlightened" age, female teachers discourage girls from pursuing professional careers. And they don't even know they're doing it. Male teachers do the same, only with less effect.

It's a learned behavior that has been passed down from generation to generation and for the most part flies under the radar because it's subtle and the people who are victimized don't suffer the effects for years, and sometimes decades. It's not as pervasive as it was even just 20 years ago, but it's still practiced by a large percentage of otherwise civilized individuals, partly because people give it pretty names and treat it like it's a better thing than it is.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

If you act sexist, I'm going to call you on it. Whitewashing said sexism with the label of "being a proper gentleman" makes me think that the person doing so knows that their behavior isn't honestly proper and is finding excuses for why they aren't at fault for being that way.

Are you trying to offend me? Seriously. Rather than try and look at this from another point of view, and why some guys are miffed here, you went straight to further implying we're somehow horrible people and we know it. Then by extension deride our parents as well.

And you have the nerve to get upset with us for allegedly not taking part in your "intelligent discussion"?

Get off your high horse, Andara, and get the chip off your shoulder. You continue to blow completely innocous things out of proportion and attempt to link them to these terrible evils. Any attempt at a legitimate discussion here is frankly ruined by your extremist attitude towards the matter at hand.

[the_std]

My saying that it is sexist behaviour didn't mean that it was the most awful evil of the world. Like you said, GK, everyone is guilty of an ism. In the big picture, this type of sexism isn't really the worst thing in the world. I would just like to recognize it for what it is. My ex isn't the only one I've witnessed this behaviour from, and every time I deal with it, a little piece of me cries on the inside because I'm being treated in a sexist fashion.

I'm not trying to say that anyone here is acting like that. I'm just trying to say that such behaviour exists, and whenever I deal with it, it's a terrible, terrible feeling.

[Lachrymose]

'Benevolent Sexism' Is Not an Oxymoron and Has Insidious Consequences for Women, Experts Argue

I can honestly say, I don't understand a lot of the responses in this thread. This is 2012. I thought we were more progressive than that. It's mind boggling. I'm a guy by the way.

(I'll admit that I could be missing some details within the thread, but I don't feel like rereading all 10 pages. I think the article addresses the original point, however.)

ETA: Maybe this explains it, I dunno... Men Don't Recognize 'Benevolent' Sexism

[Andara Bledin]

Thanks for those links, Lachrymose.

It's the whole "conform or be punished" dynamic that continues to repress women. Sure it's not nearly as strong a force as once it was, but it's still pervasive to all cultures to some degree.

That second link is particularly notable, since the project was an attempt to, in a far more scientific way, do the same thing I'm doing here; open people's eyes to the existence of and the potential for harm of benevolent sexism. Sure, you mean well, but there's a reason that the phrase is that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I experience it every single week at work, to varying degrees. I know two people that partner with my workplace on various things who aren't obviously sexist, but one discounts my abilities (despite consistent proof that I know what I'm doing better than he does) and verbally abuses every single assistant he's ever had - at least a dozen in the last 15 years and always female - and the other is more overtly so, and actually propositioned the happily married (to our general manager, who was in another part of the building at the time, and doesn't know about it because it's likely he would kick the guy's ass) CFO for sex because he thinks all women are potentially sluts and he's all that and not the disgusting pig he really is.

Closer to hand is the co-worker that works in the same room as I do who never asks me for help with his problems despite the fact that he's aware that I can solve at least half of them, and who has actually gotten pissed off at me because I've told him the answers to his questions from behind my cubicle wall because he "wasn't talking to me." In contrast, the other person who works in the room, a woman of the same age as the man (both of whom are 10-15 years older than I am), will come to me pretty much any time she runs into a problem because she's more interested in actually having her problems fixed than worrying about who does the fixing, and who has told me that she has no issue at all with me giving her answers to the questions she has, work-related or otherwise.

It's like walking on eggshells to not offend the guy. I can't even offer to help without him getting bent out of shape and then talking shit (indirectly) about me for the next half hour. It's toxic, and this attitude that benevolent sexism isn't "real" sexism was part of his upbringing and culture. Unlike those of you here who refuse to recognize the harm as opposed to the act, I don't think he could recognize it if you rubbed his nose in the data.

^-.-^

[siead_lietrathua]

in the end it kinda boils down to cultural diffrences i guess. i read into that article and it talks about how women are held to a higher moral standards of purity and blahblah. in my upbringing, we wern't taught to respect women for those reasons listed. so since my culture and raising is diffrent, i won't understand where you are coming from because it doesnt compute. so i'm gonna back out of this thread.

[HYHYBT]

Has this coworker told you that the reason he doesn't want you answering questions he hasn't asked is that you're female?

[Andara Bledin]

Nope. He goes to both of the male managers (general and department) and both of the guys who do our IT with his questions. He doesn't go to the female manager or the other woman in the room. He bitches about shit not working to her, but never asks her for any help.

And, as mentioned, if I so much as volunteer to look at something or look something up for him, he spends the next half hour being an ass. He also ignores direct orders from the female manager (co-owner with the male manager) but will follow those same orders when her husband gives them to him.

He's also one of those people who can be relied upon to regularly mention how "boys will be boys."

Most of the reason I even care is because his insubordination to the wife makes my job harder and is actually a threat to the company's well-being, so the fact that he's an asshole is a threat to my job security.

^-.-^

[bara]

Its odd, whenever I have heard the phrase 'boys will be boys', it generally involves boys doing silly childish things. Like doing something silly and getting scraped up, or getting holes in their new school clothes or awkwardly talking to girls.

This guy clearly has issues, and I can imagine some circumstances where some dumb ass would attempt to use such a phrase to explain idiotic behavior. I have dealt with such people on the phone at the call center I worked at. Some guys would call in and upon realizing the CSR had ovaries, asked for a male. Most of the ladies would attempt to handle the call since that is what they are trained to do, but then the call would escalate to a supervisor such as myself. Often times they would make harsh comments about the female who initially answered the call. I would state in no uncertain terms that all agents go through the same training and all are equally qualified to assist them, and a few I threatened to end the call if they did not stop bad mouthing my agents.
This was doubly funny if it was one of the female sups who took the call. They got, a bit more animated then I did with these guys.

Of course this is obvious sexism, the more subtle crap was often in the same form you are describing. A few male agents, and a very few at that, would never go to a female for assistance.
For instance, I would be trying to do payroll which was probably due in two hours, and they would walk across half the center and three floor support (all of which were female), and ask me for help. All I could do was tell them to get back to their seats and wait for floor support or give them a write up. And if floor support needed me, they would come get me. Floor support was chosen because they knew how to do their jobs, and they would do things like be punctual.
These types would never last long, they would never get good at their job and get fired or they would just stop showing up.

Interestingly enough, and while I know damn well it happened, the place where I saw the least amount of sexism of any kind is while I was in the Army. The worst was the call center followed by a big-box retailer. (Im talking per capita here) In fact, the retailer has been involved in numerous law-suits.