That Fine Line Between Chivalry and Disrespect

[Andara Bledin]

I see this crop up every so often - people who have different standards for women than they do men, but think it's ok because it's "chivalry."

>_<

I had a whole long rant written up about this, but really it boils down to this: If your behavior changes based on whether the person you're dealing with is male or female, and what you're doing has nothing to do with romance, you're being sexist. Period.

And while a lot of people still think it's "cute" or "romantic," there are a goodly number of us who find the behavior to be demeaning and patronizing.

Chivalry is about a whole hell of a lot more than just the "courtly graces" stuff, but nobody seems to remember any of that.

It's supposed to be about being there to help the weak, widows, and the elderly. And the only reason widows are included is because women were chattel, and widows were no longer being taken care of by either fathers or husbands. Of course, it's also supposed to be about revering God and being blindly obedient to the chain of command, but Knights aren't what they used to be.

^-.-^

[TheHuckster]

I remember a long time ago I was accused of sexism for holding a door for a woman who was holding stuff with both hands that just happened to be behind me. She somehow assumed I wouldn't have done the same for a man had it been otherwise identical. I tried to assure her the main reason I did this was because she was behind me, had bags in her hands, and had I not done it, man or woman, she would have had a broken nose, but she wouldn't hear it.

I'm all for equal respect for both sexes, but oversensitive and stupid things like the above have to stop. If someone is doing a kind gesture to you, take it for what it's worth and thank the person.

[Andara Bledin]

Yeah. I forgot to retype the bit about not getting bent out of shape if someone helps you, regardless of their motives. That just makes you an ungrateful jerk.

Now, if a guy sprints to a door just to be able to puff his chest out as he holds it open, I'm not above giving him a look like he's an idiot, but I still won't berate him for it. It's just not worth the negativity.

^-.-^

[TheHuckster]

Now, if a guy sprints to a door just to be able to puff his chest out as he holds it open, I'm not above giving him a look like he's an idiot, but I still won't berate him for it. It's just not worth the negativity.

Even that could be his way of flirting with you, which in a way corresponds to the romantic exception in your OP as well.

[Jaden]

I hold the door open for everybody behind me, regardless of gender. I have been berated by angry third-wave feminists before for doing this, and no amount of telling them that I don't care if they have tits or not when I hold the door open will placate them, but I still do it anyways. "Oh, you're holding the door open for me because I'm a woman?!" No, I'm holding the door open for you because you're behind me. Get over yourself and let me do something nice for you.

95% of people are grateful, thankfully.

[Gravekeeper]

It's supposed to be about being there to help the weak, widows, and the elderly. And the only reason widows are included is because women were chattel, and widows were no longer being taken care of by either fathers or husbands.

Duty to God and jousting aside, the idea was to exhibit courtesy and graciousness to all women. Similar consideration was to be given to all countrymen, men and women, young and old, rich and poor. You were to risk your life for lord or begger.

Considering women WERE chattel prior to this, it was actually a rather nice shift in perspective that encouraged respect for women in a time where they were still considered the font of all evil for having a vagina. >.>

Now, if a guy sprints to a door just to be able to puff his chest out as he holds it open, I'm not above giving him a look like he's an idiot, but I still won't berate him for it. It's just not worth the negativity.

Out of curiousity, do you have an actual example of what behaviour it is you're ranting about in the OP then? Because this:

I had a whole long rant written up about this, but really it boils down to this: If your behavior changes based on whether the person you're dealing with is male or female, and what you're doing has nothing to do with romance, you're being sexist. Period.

On its face is an argument that could be used to practically undermine any and all common courtesy. As you're suggesting showing consideration for any specific group is somehow a bad thing. Which is a slippery slope at best.

[Andara Bledin]

Out of curiousity, do you have an actual example of what behaviour it is you're ranting about in the OP then?

It isn't really any specific act so much as the, "OMG, it's a woman so I have to treat her better than I would any man!" attitude I see crop up. As I said, it often comes of as patronizing to women, and it's definitely not fair to other men.

I've posted stuff like this before. Usually it's the "a real man would never hit a woman" thing that irks me, since I've known as many women, if not more, that would have been better off if they'd had any physical consequences at all for being bitches. My brother had a friend go to jail because his girlfriend was basically holding him against his will, so he gripped her by her shoulders and moved her out of the way so he could escape. And this was after she'd stabbed him in the forearm with a fork. The cops wouldn't even take a statement from him. >_<

On its face is an argument that could be used to practically undermine any and all common courtesy. As you're suggesting showing consideration for any specific group is somehow a bad thing.

Yes, I am saying that showing special consideration for specific groups who do not require it is bad. It's discriminatory and discourteous to everybody else.

There is zero reason for it to undermine common courtesy unless the people doing it are rude people at heart and are only being decent to womenfolk in some half-assed effort to make themselves feel less like the uncouth people they are.

Both I and my boyfriend are equal-opportunity door holders. Whoever gets there first and is least encumbered holds the door for whoever else is around.

If someone looks like they could use a hand, we'll offer to lend one, whether that someone is male, female, young, old, a random customer or even a customer service worker who is getting paid to do whatever the hell it is they're doing.

I just don't get why anyone thinks it's cool to just ignore people in plight because they have the wrong equipment. Hell, I can't even figure out why people even check to see what kind of equipment people in need have prior to offering assistance.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

It isn't really any specific act so much as the, "OMG, it's a woman so I have to treat her better than I would any man!" attitude I see crop up. As I said, it often comes of as patronizing to women, and it's definitely not fair to other men.

This still sounds like a very nebulous thing you're ranting about as it would seem to me the % of men actually displaying said behaviour in a negative fashion is rather slim.

Usually it's the "a real man would never hit a woman" thing that irks me, since I've known as many women, if not more, that would have been better off if they'd had any physical consequences at all for being bitches.

Feel free to beat them yourself. ;p

My brother had a friend go to jail because his girlfriend was basically holding him against his will, so he gripped her by her shoulders and moved her out of the way so he could escape. And this was after she'd stabbed him in the forearm with a fork. The cops wouldn't even take a statement from him. >_<

Then the cops are being dipshits, sure.

Yes, I am saying that showing special consideration for specific groups who do not require it is bad. It's discriminatory and discourteous to everybody else.

And I disagree. Its discourteous to show extra courtesy? Again, what you're railing against is nebulous and sounds like a pretty slim margin. Do you really see someone holding the door open for a senior and think "This person is being discourteous and discrimintatory towards me, and patronizing that senior"?

There is zero reason for it to undermine common courtesy unless the people doing it are rude people at heart and are only being decent to womenfolk in some half-assed effort to make themselves feel less like the uncouth people they are.

Which again, a very small % of the people. When most are simply doing it because it is courteous and nice thing to do.

Both I and my boyfriend are equal-opportunity door holders. Whoever gets there first and is least encumbered holds the door for whoever else is around.

Good for you, but you're further proving my point about the rather slim % of people you seem to be upset with. As now we're looking for someone who is holding doors open for women and only women, letting it close in the face of men, encumbered, seniors, etc, but is likewise holding it open for women without any romantic / flirtaeous intentions. So someone who is basically holding that door open for themselves to make themselves feel better buy with a strict gender bias.

In other words you're just ranting at self absorbed morons being self absorbed.

If someone looks like they could use a hand, we'll offer to lend one, whether that someone is male, female, young, old, a random customer or even a customer service worker who is getting paid to do whatever the hell it is they're doing.

And again, good for you, but again, all that does is narrow down the criteria even further for this exlusive self absorbed asshole you're talking about.

I just don't get why anyone thinks it's cool to just ignore people in plight because they have the wrong equipment. Hell, I can't even figure out why people even check to see what kind of equipment people in need have prior to offering assistance.

That's a rather different problem than the one you professed to being upset about. So basically we're looking for someone who will refuse to extend courtesy or assistance to someone unless they're female, but likewise when doing so is not thinking with his dick in any way shape or form?

You're after a rare white elk indeed here.

[anakhouri]

I confess I have yet to see this problem you're talking about. All the people I see being courteous are courteous to everyone, not just women in particular. It's hard to learn courtesy and somehow not apply it to all people, because for most people being courteous is an automatic thing.

Or maybe you mean this: my husband will open the car door for me before getting in himself. he does not do this for, say, his brother or male friends. He will also open the car door for his mother or grandmother. Is this patronizing? I certainly don't feel patronized, and his brother and male friends have never complained.

[bara]

Im with anakhouri here. Being courteous is a habit that I dont want to break. Male, female, black, white.. doesnt matter. If you are right behind me I will hold the door, if you are a ways behind me but are encumbered I will wait and hold the door. I will definitely wait and hold the door for elderly people when I can look at them and tell that just walking is a task for them.

Heck, Ill even offer to help people load something heavy into their car if I see them having trouble or if its a large object and they are a small person. Im a big guy so I figure ill put that muscle to use. Im not being condescending or trying to say they are weak, its just that some people look like they need a hand so I offer.

[Andara Bledin]

Being courteous is a habit that I dont want to break.

As I explained, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with that.

The title says "Fine line" for a reason. >_<

Being courteous for the sake of being courteous is great. I encourage it. I practice it and the world would be a better place if everybody would.

However, there is a line. A line that separates being courteous for the sake of being courteous and being courteous because of some bizarre notion that just over half the population of the earth is less capable and requires assistance merely for the fact that they don't have dicks.

That is the line that is crossed when a guy refuses to step through a door because a woman opened it. That is the line that is crossed when a guy pulls a heavy object out of the arms of the person who is carrying it because that person is a woman. It is also the line that is crossed when a person refuses to do anything even remotely strenuous any time there's a guy around because she was brought up to expect every man to do the heavy lifting for her just because.

Seriously, I'm going to flat out ignore any other post in this thread that displays a lack of comprehension between the concepts of being decent for the sake of being decent and acting decent only when the object is a woman. There's a difference, and if you can't see that, then I can't see the point in discussing it further.

^-.-^

[crashhelmet]

How much of this problem lies with perception?

If I offer to hold a door, or carry a package, or whatever it may be, it's because of who I am. How I was raised. Some people are fine with it. Some people get offended because they want to be offended.

I'll never forget the day I mistakenly called a woman "Ma'am."

"Ma'am? MA'AM??????????? Ma'am is short for Madame. I am CERTAINLY NOT a Madame!!!!!!!!"

I didn't call her "Ma'am" to insult her. I was raised to be respectful of other people.

[siead_lietrathua]

How much of this problem lies with perception?

100x this. you can't know for certian someone's modivations for something as commonplace as holding a door. i've had women fly of the handle at me for holding a door for them before (i looked alot like a guy in highschool). they would scream that i was some guy that was just a chauvanist until i rebutted in mah girly voice that it's a terribly sexish assumption they made that only guys would open doors.

[Andara Bledin]

My post is primarily about people's self-stated beliefs on the matter more than random observation.

It's kind of hard to dismiss when someone is quite specifically stating that they hold women to a different set of standards than men as regards courtesy.

Otherwise, there are multiple displays of the examples I mentioned last post over on CS, especially the ones where guys grab things away from women to save them from such a strenuous activity despite the women in question telling them not to.

^-.-^

[siead_lietrathua]

yeah, but just because they think that women are to be treated kindly doesnt make them rude assholes that deserve to get told. i would rather a man hold me in a regard that had him acting politely, than in a regard where the appropriate treatment of a woman involves a literal slap in the face.