That Fine Line Between Chivalry and Disrespect

[SkullKing]

Just a recap to see if I understood.

The OP, are saying that treating someone different for being a woman, even when it is doing something nice, is disrespectful, not because of the act itself, but because of it´s motivation?

And some are arguing that is not true, that being nice to someone, is a nice thing even if you are being nice just because they are women?

[SkullKing]

The even bigger issue for me is I teach martial arts in my spare time and have difficulty teaching women at higher levels. I can easily hold back, as you would with anyone for training purposes, but that doesn't give them the experience they need to test their abilities. If they don't have a female friend to train with, I'll bring in a friend of mine on sparring days.

I can see how this might seem sexist, after all he is treating women differently. However without him expanding on his motivation for doing so, I do not think we can infer much from it.

That being said, he did say, that someone hitting a women, does not sit well with him, even if she deserves it. She know she deserves, but it bothers him anyway.

I personally do not subscribe to this(and it does seem a bit sexist to me),but I had a different upbringing(My grandmother leg presses 300kg).

[linguist]

Grown men are rarely targeted the way women and children are. There's no substantial demand for it.

rarely=/=never. and demand is irrelevant. if i, as an adult male, wouldn't be welcome into one of your classes because i'm male, you're practicing sexist discrimination.

These classes are taught from the viewpoint of what to do if someone tries to kidnap or rape you with important things to remember like:

1. Yell fire instead of help. You'll get more attention that way.
2. Ladies, don't wear your hair in a ponytail. It's easier to grab and pull you away. Where ever the head goes, the body will follow.
3. If someone pulls a weapon and demands your money, give it to them. Your life is more valuable than your wallet.
4. If they make you drive somewhere, crash the car. Chances are, you will not live long after you reach your destination.
5. Carry your keys in your hand so you're not digging through your purse, diverting your attention and allowing the opportunity to be grabbed.
6. If they grab you, hit them until they let go and then run, screaming
7. Stay in well lit areas
8. If you think you're being followed or someone is giving you that creepy vibe, ask them a question. Get them to acknowledge that you recognize them. it also gives you a chance to see their face.

i'll just echo andara here and say that not one of these can't be applied to men as well.

We teach techniques on what to do if someone grabs you from behind, grabs your hair, grabs your arm, etc. We teach what to do if someone grabs you with your arms up or your arms down.

Again, most grown men aren't put into these situations.

again, most=/=none.

Let's post here what I said. Pay attention to the bold print.

i did pay attention. i paid attention to the fact that you bolded to shift the focus away from this point (pay attention to my bolding):

The even bigger issue for me is I teach martial arts in my spare time and have difficulty teaching women at higher levels. I can easily hold back, as you would with anyone for training purposes, but that doesn't give them the experience they need to test their abilities. If they don't have a female friend to train with, I'll bring in a friend of mine on sparring days.

why would you have difficulty teaching them, unless you're holding them to a different standard?

finally, you never answered this question:

what's wrong with saying you don't believe in hitting people? unless of course they're attacking you, in which case why should their genitalia matter?

do you have problems hitting men? if not, but you have problems hitting women, simply because they are women, that's sexist sentiment masquerading as chivalry.

[Ginger Tea]

You mean like in post 14 where I clarified that I'm talking about "self-stated beliefs?" You know, like the one that linguist mentioned in the post right after yours. Or post 24, where I state outright that it's about getting people to take a look at their own motivations?

My original post wasn't written as clearly as I'd have liked, but by page 3 you have no excuse to be making completely assinine comments such as this:

At that point, it looks like you're not even trying to have a legitimate debate, since I've specifically stated multiple times that, no, you're not supposed to give a rat's ass about why other people are doing it; that's their job.

My post was written in the past tense that it took you till post #14 to get your shit together and clarify your stance/OP, By then I knew you meant us ourselves not our observations of others, but you still dismissed other posts on observations without actually clarifying that you wanted first hand experinceces and our rationals behind our acts.

As a debating forum knowing what side of the fence someone is meant to be on is kinda helpfull, at the first sign of people getting the wrong end of the stick you should say "this is what I said, but this is what I mean't, sorry for the confusion."

So I was mearly commenting on your lack of clarification till a later point and the dismissive posts inbetween, knowing full well what you meant to say by the time I had gotten round to typing my response, I had not just read the OP and gone to post, I had read the whole thread and could have just let your vagueness slide, least you were not as vague as the Olympic thread,.
[and this is just a rehash of paragraph #1 that I can not be bothered to edit out]

I'm hoping this doesn't come across seeming like a personal attack as it can be applied to anyone on this or any forum who isn't quite clear on their stance on a subject, yours just happened to be a thread where OP clarification seemed neccessary.

As for the post after mine, like I'm to know what someone will type 5 minutes after I hit post let alone 90 minutes

[Andara Bledin]

You failed to adequately explain, then referred to us as halfwits and idiots when people had trouble pinning down your nebulous criteria.

Yet again, I did not refer to you as halfwits and idiots. Thank you for displaying the fact that you didn't actually read what I posted, but merely skimmed it enough to satisfy yourself that it said what you wanted to respond to.

The OP, are saying that treating someone different for being a woman, even when it is doing something nice, is disrespectful, not because of the act itself, but because of it´s motivation?

That's essentially my point.

If you treat people nice because they're people, that's great. Keep it up. We should all be trying to do just that.

However, if you treat people differently based purely on their sex, then you are, by the most basic definition, sexist. Most people don't even think about it because, generally, it was how they were raised. It's so much a part of their basic worldview that, as displayed in this thread, they have difficulty grasping or accepting that fact.

^-.-^

[Kaylyn]

Andara, I totally get you.

I'm a female trucker, and I get this CONSTANTLY. The men around me feeling like they have to baby me or hold my hand for me to do the job I was hired to do. They come over and "help" me when I am showing no visible signs of needing help, just so I don't have to walk a few extra feet to finish a certain task, something as simple as moving a jackstand underneath the nose of a trailer.

This occurs to the point of, they do things that DON'T NEED TO BE DONE YET for safety reasons. In the case of the jackstands, I often drop a trailer and kind of back up to the other one that's not done unloading yet...can't connect to it because they don't want us connecting while they're still inside the trailer. Guys see this and race over to move the jackstand out of my way so I can back under it. I have to jump out and say, "no, don't do that, they're not ready." And they get the MOST CONFUSED look on their face when I try to explain, because they're just trying to help a woman out, right?

And there is tons of (albeit anecdotal) evidence from my side that this is, in fact, because I am a woman and nothing else. Because they don't race to help the men out in the same situation.

I wouldn't mind so much if I was having trouble with a task. If I've got a stubborn door that won't close, and they've seen me struggling with it, then by all means, come help! But just because I'm walking to the back of the trailer to close the door doesn't mean you have to jump out and save me from the strain of latching a door. It just makes me feel like they don't think I'm capable of doing this job I've been doing for almost ten years, and it feels VERY degrading.

[bara]

I'm just trying to get people to stop and think about what they're really doing when they talk about ideals that are, at their very core, sexist in nature.
^-.-^

This I can agree with.

[Andara Bledin]

And the worst part is that those truckers actually think that they're being nice while they're out there acting like you're unable to do your job on your own.

It's one thing to offer to help someone who shows some sign that they could use assistance. It's quite another to force assistance on someone who shows every sign of being perfectly capable of doing what they're doing without it.

^-.-^

[Aethian]

So I can't hold doors, reach things from high spots, or if I see someone fall help them up. Because that would just be in the basis a sexist act and not just being helpful. That is unless someone requests help first. Gotcha, I'll spread that along to all my coworkers and then the unruly bunch I work with can get even worse with the manners.

Which honestly would mean that burping and farting on the floor wouldn't count anymore, cause it was mostly refrained when the ladies were on the floor. But then thats because those ladies complained but them stopping would be sexist. And the coworker who constantly eats at her case with her mouth open should be able to continue since it was a coworker of a opposite sex who said it wasn't lady like. OH what about the two women who work on each side of a man coworker and like to discuss...womanly problems. He can't complain to get the boss to do anything since cause both of them are male and that makes it sexist against the female coworkers....even tho none of us want to hear that talk.

[Kaylyn]

If someone has an armload and needs a door held open, go ahead. I'm actually not one to be fussed over having a door held open anyway, as long as you're not falling all over yourself trying to do it for whatever reason. Just doesn't really bother me one way or another.

If someone's having trouble reaching for something on a high shelf and you're taller, go ahead and help. If someone falls, DEFINITELY help them, in my opinion anyway. I dunno if this reply had anything to do with my post, but I do believe I addressed that, as I don't mind being helped if I'm visibly having trouble or looking around for someone to call over to help. It's only when I'm just going about my normal routine and doing my normal job and people (not just men, but other women!) seem to want to scramble to do things that are actually messing up my job and making it more difficult, under the guise of chivalry or "helpfulness".

I'm seriously sensing a straw man here. Those manners you speak of should just be commonplace, not merely because a member of the opposite sex is present. Because heaven forbid men exist that aren't just burping, farting pigs.

[crashhelmet]

rarely=/=never. and demand is irrelevant. if i, as an adult male, wouldn't be welcome into one of your classes because i'm male, you're practicing sexist discrimination.

I could say if there's anything I've learned living in Vegas it's that Sexual Discrimination against men is anything but uncommon, but that's for another thread. if you show up tot he class, we'll ask you why you want to take it and then offer you a free, private class at another time. A LOT of the women in these classes are abuse, rape, and assault victims. We have trouble getting them to come out of their shells at times and having men, other than those of us conducting it, in the class can make things worse.

i'll just echo andara here and say that not one of these can't be applied to men as well.

Yes, they can. In fact, the same material is taught to the male kids and teens that take the classes for their age groups. As I said though, it's not marketed towards grown men but will be offered privately.

i did pay attention. i paid attention to the fact that you bolded to shift the focus away from this point (pay attention to my bolding):

why would you have difficulty teaching them, unless you're holding them to a different standard?

I'm not holding them to a different standard. I'm holding myself to a different standard.

People that I train in martial arts are broken down into 4 groups. beginners, intermediates, advanced, and Black Belts.

You NEVER make ANY direct contact with a beginner. All punches and kicks are controlled and stop an inch or 2 away from their target. Any contact that is made is from them using their arms to block your "strikes." Sparring amongst beginners is done in full padded gear and in steps, like a turn based game.

With intermediates, you make light and controlled contact. If they miss the block, they should feel you touching them, but not hard enough hurt or leave a mark of any kind. With intermediates, you start working on the basic throws and sweeps and only after teaching them the proper way to fall. Sparring amongst intermediate students is done in full padded gear and conducted with a point scoring system. Sparring is stopped whenever a point is scored.

Advanced students, your strikes are controlled to the point to where if they miss a block, they might have a slight bruise from it. More advanced throws and sweeps are introduced. Sparring with intermediates is done in full padded gear and is a little more free, but stopped for points earned from combinations that result in clean strikes.

With my black belt students, pretty much all restrictions are off. I'm controlled enough to not break their bones, but we're hitting each other hard enough to leave black eyes, fat lips, body bruises, and even the occasional broken tooth. Black Belts are supposed to dodge a strike or have it glance off of them. Blocking is only stressed for weapons defense drills. Black Belts spar with a mouthguard and a groin protector. Helmets can be worn by anyone with an existing facial injury, as to not make it worse, otherwise not allowed. Sparring is free form. No points scored and it only stops when it gets to a grappling stalemate or if there is concern for injury.

This is the level I have trouble teaching my female students. I never said that I can't or that I won't teach them. Only that I have trouble with it. Men and women are treated equally up until the Black Belt level and then it changes. I'll work drills with them, I'll let them try and hit me while I work on my defense, I'll even grapple with them. I just won't hit them.

finally, you never answered this question:


do you have problems hitting men? if not, but you have problems hitting women, simply because they are women, that's sexist sentiment masquerading as chivalry.

Outside the Dojo, no, I don't have problems hitting men. However, if someone half my size tries to punch me, I'm not going to hit him. I'll restrain him. Inside the Dojo it varies based on their level as described above.

[Kaylyn]

Side note...I find it funny that when my right wrist was splinted last year for over a month due to a severe sprain, no one offered me any help, not once. Yet as a perfectly healthy young female with no signs of injury, I get it all the time. /shrug

[Aethian]

I dunno if this reply had anything to do with my post,
*snips*
I'm seriously sensing a straw man here. Those manners you speak of should just be commonplace, not merely because a member of the opposite sex is present. Because heaven forbid men exist that aren't just burping, farting pigs.

It hadn't to do with your post Kaylyn. I was trying to go overboard just to show that manners =/= sexism. Because if manners DID equal sexism then where are we to stop at saying things can or can't be done because hey...it might be sexist.

[Andara Bledin]

So I can't hold doors, reach things from high spots, or if I see someone fall help them up.

Going overboard for effect only works if the person you're responding to actually said what you're going overboard about.

I'm seriously sensing a straw man here. Those manners you speak of should just be commonplace, not merely because a member of the opposite sex is present. Because heaven forbid men exist that aren't just burping, farting pigs.

I could start a scarecrow farm with all of the strawmen that have been thrown into this thread.

^-.-^

[SkullKing]

This is the level I have trouble teaching my female students. I never said that I can't or that I won't teach them. Only that I have trouble with it. Men and women are treated equally up until the Black Belt level and then it changes. I'll work drills with them, I'll let them try and hit me while I work on my defense, I'll even grapple with them. I just won't hit them.

Could you explain why this is?

Is purely because of their sex?

Or is it because most of your students, were abused by men, and thus you need to be extra careful due to their past?