Being the Lonely Skeptic in the Room

[Ghel]

I went to a friend's dinner party / birthday party last night. I think I accidentally ticked off one of the other guests. Here's the conversation:

Me: My coworker was trying to suggest that Hubby [who was also there] go to a chiropractor that does acupuncture to help him quit smoking.
Guest1: I've heard that works, but you really have to believe it.
Me: Well, sure. I suppose it would work about as well as a placebo.
Guest1 gives me a look like that's not what she meant.
Guest2: Acupuncture works for a whole lot of things. Just about anything you name, acupuncture can help with it.
Me: (thinking) How do you use acupuncture to help an amuptation?
Hubby: Acupuncture's been around for thousands of years. It must do something.
Me: Not necessarily. I'd love to see studies done to test the effectiveness of acupuncture.

At this point, they started discussing whether acupuncture hurts and what kinds of things it's used for, so I just kept quiet.

From what I've read, acupuncture works no better than a placebo. It really bothers me that these two mental health professionals were discussing an unproven form of treatment as if clinical studies had shown its effectiveness. I try to say something, and I either get ignored or treated as a pariah. I suppose that's why I don't get invited to more dinner parties.

[Andara Bledin]

Ouch.

I've been in situations where the people around me were all discussing something I knew was factually wrong, and who proceeded to treat me like I was mentally deficient for having the audacity to actually introduce facts into their little fantasy-land.

As for your topic, there are actually a multitude of studies on acupuncture, and you're correct: it's no better than a placebo. That isn't to say placebos don't have their uses, but that doesn't make acupuncture any less a snake oil remedy.

^-.-^

[crashhelmet]

It all depends on what you're using it for. For something like trying to stop smoking, it's definitely a placebo. For something biological, it's not. Acupuncture and acupressure are based on nerve manipulation to trigger reactions within the body.

The problem here is most of scientific community hears words like "Chi" & "Meridians" and automatically thinks spirituality and/or religion. Oooooh... Magic! The truth of the matter is that they're not taking the time to investigate what chi and meridians really are.

Yes, there are sham practitioners out there and people that get placebo like results, but those results never last. At the same time, you have your legitimate practitioners that provide the long lasting results of the healing process.

[gremcint]

There are tons of things that have been around for thousands of years that are terrible for people.

[Andara Bledin]

For something biological, it's not.

The only effect acupuncture has is psychological. You get the same exact results from fake needles as you do from real ones. The placebo effect is the only effect pure vanilla acupuncture has.

But that has nothing to do with what this thread is about.

This is about being surrounded and treated poorly by others for daring to question that their statements of fact might not be based on reality.

Based on the OP, Ghel didn't even make a definitive statement regarding whether or not it could work; merely that the statements the others were making were hyperbolic and/or could be replicated with placebos.

The worst of it, as she mentioned, is that two of those were professionals who should know better than to blindly accept what is no more than folk lore handed down through the ages and believed for no more reason that "it's always been that way."

^-.-^

[anakhouri]

My husband has been on the opposite end of that situation.

At a family gathering, he was sittng with some relatives. They were discussing some bracelets one of them had that were magnetic or something and supposedly helped with a host of health problems. Suddenly his grandma looked at him and said, "And there's N, sittng there thinking we're a bunch of idiots!" (N is a biochemist)

N replied, "If it works for you, that's great." (of course he believes it's a placebo effect, but he wanted to be kind- he had not said anything about it up until that point)

The moral being, you general can't change people's minds so it's usually best to be diplomatic about their beliefs and just keep your mouth shit most of the time. If the people are friends and you feel ocmfortable arguing with them, go for it, but with others I think it's usually best to keep quiet and make a note to not ever utilize their services.

[crashhelmet]

The only effect acupuncture has is psychological. You get the same exact results from fake needles as you do from real ones. The placebo effect is the only effect pure vanilla acupuncture has.

But that has nothing to do with what this thread is about.

This is about being surrounded and treated poorly by others for daring to question that their statements of fact might not be based on reality.

Both Ghel and yourself made comments about the validity of Acupuncture, therefore this thread is also about said validity.

Based on the OP, Ghel didn't even make a definitive statement regarding whether or not it could work; merely that the statements the others were making were hyperbolic and/or could be replicated with placebos.

Right. She gave her opinion formulated from what she had read. You, however, further affirmed that she was right that it was "no better than a placebo."

The worst of it, as she mentioned, is that two of those were professionals who should know better than to blindly accept what is no more than folk lore handed down through the ages and believed for no more reason that "it's always been that way."

^-.-^

Given that they're mental health professionals, they should know quite a bit about the placebo effect of various treatments. And for something like smoking cessation, I agree that it's all placebo.

But to call all of it junk science is ignorance. What it really is, is fundamental Neuroscience.

You mentioned fake needles, other studies mention toothpicks. It's not what you're being poked with. It's where you're being poked. The "Chi" that's being controlled is nothing more than bio-kinetic electricity generated by your body and moved throughout your nervous system. The "meridians" are the focus points to spark, control, and steer the energy through the various parts of the body. You don't poke someone where it hurts and expect it to "fix" the problem.

This is all information you learn in anatomy, physiology, kinesiology, and reflexology classes.

[telecom_goddess]

I tried acupuncture once years ago for depression/lack of energy. I was BOUNCING by the time I left there....it does work well. I believe it's used for addiction for all kinds of things as well.

[Nekojin]

What Andara's getting at is that in controlled laboratory situations, with all of the proper routines being observed (controls, etc.), Acupuncture does no better than placebos. It doesn't matter what you're being poked with or where you're being poked (several of the studies that I've seen explicitly tested poking people in the "wrong" places as opposed to the "right" places, to much the same effect), it has more to do with your state of mind. If you believe it works, it works.

Any "science" that requires your belief to function is nothing more than snake oil.

[Andara Bledin]

Wow. Way to derail the thread and utterly miss the point.

^-.-^

[crashhelmet]

What Andara's getting at is that in controlled laboratory situations, with all of the proper routines being observed (controls, etc.), Acupuncture does no better than placebos. It doesn't matter what you're being poked with or where you're being poked (several of the studies that I've seen explicitly tested poking people in the "wrong" places as opposed to the "right" places, to much the same effect), it has more to do with your state of mind. If you believe it works, it works.

Any "science" that requires your belief to function is nothing more than snake oil.

And I agree with that last part. But these studies don't analyse the actual science behind the method. It's a common problem in scientific studies. They go in with a distinct bias and prove themselves right.

Instead of tracking what happens when the needles are placed or pressure points manipulated, they just poke you and ask if your head still hurts. All of these studies are based off of pain management. They ignore the studies where it helps patients with Parkinson's Disease and other neural disorders.

[crashhelmet]

Wow. Way to derail the thread and utterly miss the point.

^-.-^

I derailed it???? Want to reread your own post?

As for your topic, there are actually a multitude of studies on acupuncture, and you're correct: it's no better than a placebo. That isn't to say placebos don't have their uses, but that doesn't make acupuncture any less a snake oil remedy.

^-.-^

You established that this was a topic for discussion. Don't try and blame me for a discussion you gave validity to.

[Nekojin]

And I agree with that last part. But these studies don't analyse the actual science behind the method. It's a common problem in scientific studies. They go in with a distinct bias and prove themselves right.

The burden of proof would be on you - the one claiming the validity of something - to show that you're right. Even below, you're taking an incredibly unscientific tack, attacking the methodology (by assumption, no less!) of studies you haven't taken the time to read.

Also, way to slander an entire profession in one go. Good job.

Instead of tracking what happens when the needles are placed or pressure points manipulated, they just poke you and ask if your head still hurts. All of these studies are based off of pain management. They ignore the studies where it helps patients with Parkinson's Disease and other neural disorders.

Try this. What you're talking about is still within placebo reliability - there's no evidence that it's actually doing anything itself. All of the "disciplines" that purportedly work because of pressure points, "chi points," "meridians," and so on are junk science - a pseudo-scientific babble that sounds good to the untrained ear, because they contain a kernel of truth. Qigong, TT, Acupuncture, Acupressure, they're all based on the same mumbo jumbo.

Heck, so is dim mak, the idea that you can press certain pressure points with no greater pressure than a loose handshake, and kill someone outright, or even better, kill them at a future time of the practitioner's choosing?

Or perhaps you'd like to partake in KMT, a new treatment sweeping the country. KMT is short for Kitten Massage Therapy, where you place a handful of well-fed, content kittens on a person's body and let them knit and purr the poisons away!

[Nyoibo]

Or perhaps you'd like to partake in KMT, a new treatment sweeping the country. KMT is short for Kitten Massage Therapy, where you place a handful of well-fed, content kittens on a person's body and let them knit and purr the poisons away!

I can guarandamntee you that no one, (unless they have allergies) is not going to come away from that treatment feeling a hell of a lot better than when they went in, I mean KITTENS!

[Hyena Dandy]

I think kitten massages would really help.