Being the Lonely Skeptic in the Room

[crashhelmet]

The burden of proof would be on you - the one claiming the validity of something - to show that you're right. Even below, you're taking an incredibly unscientific tack, attacking the methodology (by assumption, no less!) of studies you haven't taken the time to read.

I have read the studies. I've read studies on pain management, studies on inflammation management, studies on muscle atrophy, studies on Parkinson's, and texts on the pros and the cons of administering it. I've read these for my own health benefits, my desires to be a better fighter, and my current goal to be certified as a physical trainer and therapist.

Also, way to slander an entire profession in one go. Good job.

Thanks!

Try this. What you're talking about is still within placebo reliability - there's no evidence that it's actually doing anything itself. All of the "disciplines" that purportedly work because of pressure points, "chi points," "meridians," and so on are junk science - a pseudo-scientific babble that sounds good to the untrained ear, because they contain a kernel of truth. Qigong, TT, Acupuncture, Acupressure, they're all based on the same mumbo jumbo.

Nerve stimulation and numbification (Is that a word?) in parkinson's patents is placebo? As someone with over 30 fractures in his life, i can tell you that pain is all in your mind, but an uncontrollable twitching?

Heck, so is dim mak, the idea that you can press certain pressure points with no greater pressure than a loose handshake, and kill someone outright, or even better, kill them at a future time of the practitioner's choosing?

In theory, Dim Mak could work. Not the way it's glamourized in the movies, but the right combination of nerve stimulation could cause the heart to skip a beat or some other portion of the nervous system to shut down. I've seen and heard a lot in my 31 years of martial arts training. Dim Mak is one thing people claim to know, but no one ever teaches. it doesn't mean it's not possible though.

If I'm fighting in a tournament, or against some idiot on the street, one of my targets is a "pressure point" right above the knee. Striking that will cause the leg to go numb and they'll fall. Or I could strike right below the elbow and deaden the hand. I could also strike where the outside of the pectoral muscle meets the shoulder and deaden the entire arm. How long they last all depends on an equation of force vs accuracy that I don't know the specifics of.

Or perhaps you'd like to partake in KMT, a new treatment sweeping the country. KMT is short for Kitten Massage Therapy, where you place a handful of well-fed, content kittens on a person's body and let them knit and purr the poisons away!

You have to get past the myths that have been established by the craze for New Age and Homeopathic treatments. That's what all of these studies focus on. They don't analyse how the body itself reacts.

[Nekojin]

Let's get down to the basics. You know what Alternative Medicine that is proven to work is called?

It's called medicine.

There are techniques that are straight out of middle-age quackery that have been proven to actually be usable techniques - things involving leeches and maggots, to name a few. How did they get to be accepted? They were tested, and found to be reliable.

There have been plenty of peer-reviewed studies on acupuncture over the past three decades - literally hundreds of studies. There aren't any that I'm aware of that show it to be anything better than "slightly better than placebo" for anything. If you've got some, feel free to whip 'em out. Claiming that they're all flawed and/or biased is, well, crazy.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go teach dim mak to some kittens.

[Andara Bledin]

You established that this was a topic for discussion. Don't try and blame me for a discussion you gave validity to.

No. I established that the second half of my post was about the conversation Ghel was involved in, not that it was the topic of this thread. All that second bit was there for was to confirm for her that, yes, indeedy, every study ever done (including the ones that went in trying to prove that it really does work) come up with the same results. It's not better than a placebo.

So not only was she being treated poorly, she was being treated poorly by people who were wrong.

As someone with over 30 fractures in his life, i can tell you that pain is all in your mind, but an uncontrollable twitching?

Ultimately, everything is all in your mind. That doesn't make it any less (or more, for that matter) real.

^-.-^

[AmbrosiaWriter]

It does stink when you're the odd one out on the conversation when you want to contribute and make the conversation more interesting or...erm.. validated? Not sure that's the right word.

I really dislike it when I mention something like a book I think is crap. I will list all the reasons I think a book is crap. For Twilight, this list is long. From bad writing mechanics, to repetitive description, weak characters, and frankly overused, uncreative story.

Someone else, for whatever reason, will just pop up with, "Yeah well she made millions of dollars!"
Me: ...that doesn't mean the book is any good, just that it's popular.
"Yeah well that's just my opinion."
Me: ...*grooowwwllll* If you don't want me to respond to your opinion then don't say your opinion to me when I'm in debate mode. I will do my very best to tear it to pieces.
"Yeah well whatever, she made a lot of money."
Me: .... *Urge, to kill... rising.*

It's kind of different, but at the same time the same. People will just refuse to let anyone get away with any kind of dissonance or disagreement with what they believe to be the troof! If that means transforming themselves into a broken record, or just flat out ignoring the person and making them feel unwelcome, they'll do what they have to do not let the discord continue.

[AdminAssistant]

I run into the same problem with people who love "theatre" but have no concept of it outside of Broadway musicals, "A Christmas Carol," and the Tony Awards. Which, hey, that's fine, you go do that. But don't treat me like a heretic when I say that "Wicked" has a weak book (Ugh, Stephen Schwartz) or that "Spring Awakening" celebrates date rape or that Andrew Lloyd Webber is an egg-shaped hack. I am going to see the Les Mis movie, but only because Hugh Jackman. Want me to get excited? Tell me they're making a movie out of "Assassins".

[Nekojin]

Tangent:

...don't treat me like a heretic when I say that "Wicked" has a weak book (Ugh, Stephen Schwartz)...

It was 15 degrees off from a good book - like it kept veering near an interesting story, but never quite got there.

[AdminAssistant]

I'm not familiar with the source novel, but the book and lyrics to the musical are just...incredibly cheesy and lame.

[SkullKing]

Heck, so is dim mak, the idea that you can press certain pressure points with no greater pressure than a loose handshake, and kill someone outright, or even better, kill them at a future time of the practitioner's choosing?

I would like to say that Dim Mak doesn´t really mean that in it´s original contest. This is a myth perpetuated to the west due to people wanting to make money trough martial arts trying to market it as something more than it is.

And there are numerous cases where people receive injuries(not necessarily in fights), that only prove fatal or show serious symptoms a long time after.(not saying it has anything to do with chi, or whatever)

[Lace Neil Singer]

That feeling mentioned in the OP's post is why I never bring up religion at dinner parties. Being an atheist with Satanist leanings, if religion is discussed it'll only end in tears.

[the_std]

I think that a lot of the hurt in this topic comes with knowing your audience and picking your battles.

In the OP's situation, I don't believe she did anything wrong because it's a fairly tame topic and it's hard to know what other people believe when it comes to that sort of thing. Had it been me and a group of people I didn't know brought up a holistic medicine or any of the para-sciences, I'd say something like, "Oh, really? Hm, I've never tried that before." or "Yes, it sounds interesting," you know, vague comments that neither validate nor refute what they were saying about it. For the most part, these people are making conversation, not debating the true and scientific merits of such treatments. I would only engage in that kind of debate if I knew my audience and was sure they wouldn't object to that kind of back and forth.

Then, when it comes to more sensitive subjects such as politics or religion, the bean-dip method is preferable. When my ultra-religious aunt brings up abortion, instead of responding to her comments, I'll say something like, "Gee auntie, that's a beautiful blouse you're wearing! Where'd you get it?" or "Oh my gosh, mom, this is the best roast beef I've ever had! Where'd you find the recipe?", thus effectively introducing a new, safe topic of conversation instead of going down the war path.

It sounds kind of cheesy and hokey, but it's polite and won't elicit the bad feelings the OP experienced from her party.

Also, I'm not saying intellectual topics shouldn't be discussed; you just have to know when it's appropriate. When I'm meeting new people at a dinner party, I'm not going to tell them my stance on the Israel/Palestine conflict; I'm going to ask them where they work or what their hobbies are. It's all about knowing your audience, really.

[Ghel]

Let's get down to the basics. You know what Alternative Medicine that is proven to work is called?

It's called medicine.

Yes, this. Exactly.

People will just refuse to let anyone get away with any kind of dissonance or disagreement with what they believe to be the troof! If that means transforming themselves into a broken record, or just flat out ignoring the person and making them feel unwelcome, they'll do what they have to do not let the discord continue.

Yes, I run into that a lot. It's extremely frustrating.

Also, I'm not saying intellectual topics shouldn't be discussed; you just have to know when it's appropriate. When I'm meeting new people at a dinner party, I'm not going to tell them my stance on the Israel/Palestine conflict; I'm going to ask them where they work or what their hobbies are. It's all about knowing your audience, really.

This is why I don't bring up religion at dinner parties - especially at this friend's house. But I thought that acupuncture would be safe because, as I mentioned, half the guests work in mental health. I guess it just shows that confirmation bias can be a problem even among educated professionals.

[wolfie]

II really dislike it when I mention something like a book I think is crap. I will list all the reasons I think a book is crap. For Twilight, this list is long. From bad writing mechanics, to repetitive description, weak characters, and frankly overused, uncreative story.

Someone else, for whatever reason, will just pop up with, "Yeah well she made millions of dollars!"
Me: ...that doesn't mean the book is any good, just that it's popular.
"Yeah well that's just my opinion."
Me: ...*grooowwwllll* If you don't want me to respond to your opinion then don't say your opinion to me when I'm in debate mode. I will do my very best to tear it to pieces.
"Yeah well whatever, she made a lot of money."
Me: .... *Urge, to kill... rising.*

By that person's "reasoning", Pabst Blue Ribbon is a better beer than a microbrew produced by a brewpub, because more of it is sold (or - awaiting flames from Jester) Bacardi is a better rum than Pyrat Cask (I forgot the year), for the same reason. The mass-market swill (literary or liquid) will always have higher sales than the "niche" product intended for connaisseurs, but that doesn't mean it's better.

[Andara Bledin]

Mass market swill.... such an apt term.

^-.-^

[guywithashovel]

I'll admit, I'm tempted to roll my eyes when people bash Twilight. It's not because I am a fan of the books or movies, because I'm not. I haven't even seen/read most of them. It's because most of the people who bash it seem to fall into at least one of two categories.

1. People who bash it just because it's popular, and by talking about how much they hate it, they're pretty much saying, "Hey, everyone, look at how contrarian I can be!" In other words, trying to be cool by bashing what it considered cool.

2. People who aren't in the target audience. Frankly, if you aren't a straight female between the approximate ages of 12 and 18, the books and movies really aren't being made with you in mind. Sure, you can still have an opinion, but imagine hearing me, a thirty year-old man, dissecting a Pixar movie and talking about how I didn't like it. I may have a right to my opinion, but since I'm not in the movie's target audience, it really isn't about me.

[Ghel]

People who aren't in the target audience.

What if you're concerned with how it effects the target audience? For example, in the case of the Twilight series, how it's basically one big rape fantasy featuring an abusive and controlling boyfriend.