Are these really racist and sexist?

[siead_lietrathua]

i think dating preference is one of those things that people shouldn't be called out on. we often are not in control of who we find attractive. (we can control if we ACT on it, but the attraction itself is kinda sub-brain shit). so if someone is genuinely not attracted to certain races or genders they aren't being an ass.

the way to avoid sounded racist though, in those situations, is the "i statement" thing. instead of being like... "white chicks are the hottest" just put it as "i think white chicks are the hottest". by adding the "i think" it makes it an opinion instead of a statement of fact, and is generally less offensive (unless someone's just jonesing for a fight)

[Jaden]

woooah, this thread wasn't about rape i thought. it was just about unwanted glances, which is NOT the same thing in a long shot.


yes, rape is terrible, and yes victim blaming sucks. but can't we just make fun of stupid bra-bibs and acknowledge that it's a silly damn thing without having to jump with the the extreme of potential-rape for no bra-bibbage?

noone said anyone deserved assault or unwanted glances. all they said was if a person doesn't like the idea that someone might glance at their own exposed skin, then just don't expose it! this goes for sexual and non-sexual body parts. if you hate your pinkies being stared at, wear gloves. don't make it up to the rest of the world not to look at your pinkies in a casual glance.

Pretty much all of this. Like, holy shit, guys. You basically just did a rape equivalent of a Godwin to this thread. "I don't see what the point of a bra bib is. Why not just cover it?" "Oh, so RAPE IS THE VICTIMS FAULT?!"

Seriously? Seriously.

[Andara Bledin]

Seriously? Seriously.

Well, when you don't have an actual counter argument, might as well go for the nuclear hyperbole, right?

[Ginger Tea]

I fall into the category of 'would I be seen as racist if I said out loud "black girls just don't do it for me."?' then I also fall into the trap of can I say black? African-American is sayable, but Afro-European just sounds odd.
Having said that I have a hard time finding blondes natural or dyed, attractive too, but Asian's for the most part no problems with in the find attractive books.
Normally I would differentiate Asian as Indian etc side of the continent and Oriental for Japan etc, but in this case its without checking the average looks for each country, encompasses the continent.
I'm not even sure if Oriental is un PC in the UK, I do recall it being a bit of a no no over on CS in America in one thread last year, but where I lived we used both terms but had a distinct geographical split.

Edit: although I am convinced some of the K-pop acts have been bleached in the video's, sometimes I swear if it wasn't for the eye's and the language I would peg them as white with a modest tan and even then I'm not 100% on the whole eye thing.

[Jaden]

Well, when you don't have an actual counter argument, might as well go for the nuclear hyperbole, right?

I'm the one who went for the nuclear hyperbole? Not this:

As for those sluts in Burqas, they should keep their eyes covered and stay inside if they don't want lewd comments and to be raped.

But calling that out for what it is? Ok, fine. Here's a counter-argument:

To equate saying "I think any normal heterosexual guy will glance in spite of himself if you're showing cleavage" to "Women who dress like sluts deserve to be raped" - which is exactly what happened - is patently ridiculous. Nobody should ever leer or stare, as it's creepy and rude and violating, but I would like absolutely anybody to tell me they've never been shocked by an attractive person and had their eyes wander where they shouldn't, even for a split second. That goes for both male and female.

[Kheldarson]

I'm the one who went for the nuclear hyperbole? Not this:

I think Andara was agreeing with you, albeit in a snarky overtone. But that's how I read it.

Also, if we're using infomercial actors as an example of sexism against women, I'd like to point out that infomercials are basically required to paint all people as idiots in order to peddle their products.

So it's not just a woman failing to be able to somehow cover herself properly between settings in the things; it's also the guy who's incapable of cooking something without causing a fire in the house.

[Rebel]

To the OP regarding the cami napkin thing ad:
I see nothing wrong with the product. Hell, I have big boobs and the fact is that 'fashion' these days doesn't really cater towards being able to cover them up. Every nice blouse I've bought for interviews or work purposes tends to have a low-cut neckline. Any top with a 'modest' neckline generally does not button up over the boobs, or it strains and threatens to pop buttons off when buttoned up. If you go for a larger size to fit your blobs, you look like you're wearing a shapeless tent. The only respectable way to dress professionally as a women with sufficient boobage and still look nice is to do the camisol/blouse combination. Downside is, layers can be fucking hot or uncomfortable to wear sometimes, and so we want a way to get the layered look without the annoyance. You know, like the ad actually stated.
The product works well as advertised. Fuck, I've had camisols migrate south during wear which completely negates their purpose. The camisol napkin does not have that problem.

Your opinion about just wearing a higher cut shirt really shows your ignorance about women's clothes these days. High cut tops are just not always an option. Even less so if you have a very tight budget.
The product was made to create the modest look that is expected for women in professional fields. It in no ways affects men, but you still find a way to mansplain a solution to a problem that has already been solved by women. Your comment on facebook was an attempt to make women who used the product sound like morons who just hadn't known about the existence of high-cut tops. Good job. You sound like a real champ.

I think the real question that needs to be asked here is why are you watching infomercials about products you will never need to use? Why did you feel the need to post it to your facebook and talk down about people who buy the product? Why are you so shocked that people are pointing out your shitty attitude?

To the people here who are saying that women who don't want uninvited glances should just cover up, in case you hadn't realized, the advertised product is for that very purpose.

[daleduke17]

I fall into the category of 'would I be seen as racist if I said out loud "black girls just don't do it for me."?' then I also fall into the trap of can I say black? African-American is sayable, but Afro-European just sounds odd.

Even some black people don't know what to call themselves as the preferred title changes every few years.

[Nekojin]

To the people here who are saying that women who don't want uninvited glances should just cover up, in case you hadn't realized, the advertised product is for that very purpose.

Put me in the camp that says, "Just cover up," and thinks that this product is a good solution for people who have other issues with finding good-fitting blouses.

Let me tangent just a little bit here. It's related, I promise.

I have an acquaintance who enjoys cosplay - it's one of her major hobbies. She is, shall we say, amply endowed, and enjoys playing comic book characters who are similarly endowed - she's done Mystique, Emma Frost, and a host of other somewhat topheavy characters, including ones for whom a great deal of cleavage is a "feature" of their costumes.

And once in a while, she'll start in on a tirade about how some creepy guy was staring at her, making her uncomfortable, and it should be stopped. In these rants, though, it becomes clear that she only wants positive attention from her cosplaying, not negative attention in any way.

The problem here is that she put herself in the position to be the center of attention. She's going out of her way to get attention (as all cosplayers do, whether they realize it or not - they are, in a way, borrowing the celebrity of the character they're cosplaying), and I have yet to hear of a way of filtering attention to make it so that only desirable, good attention is given.

Does this mean that I'm blaming the victim? Not at all. There's still a lot of blame to be heaped on creeps... but they have to cross a line before it's worth even worrying about. There's typically four things that creeps can do to cross that line:

1.) Invading personal space / getting too close. Some creeps hover too close, getting inside someone else's personal space without touching.
2.) Inappropriate/unwanted touching. Stroking someone's ass, thighs, breasts, and so on. Actually, touching anywhere when it's not clearly acceptable (handshakes, etc) should probably be here; I've seen a few creeps that like to give backrubs as an "acceptable" way to fondle the object of their affection.
3.) Inappropriate comments. Asking a cosplayer for sexual favors or loudly discussing how she'd be in bed.
4.) Following/stalking. Going everywhere the cosplayer is.

If they're not doing any of these things, it's not worth worrying about - while their behavior still might not be appropriate, they're not victimizing the cosplayer in any way if they're not crossing any of those four lines. And while it might still be creepy, this is the sort of thing that comes with cosplaying - you have to take the good with the bad. You can't reasonably expect 100% of the viewers to be completely civil and courteous 100% of the time. Humanity doesn't work that way.

Could the creeps be dealt with? Should the creeps straighten up and stop being creeps? Sure they could, and should. But again, we're dealing with imperfect humanity, and while we're dealing with reality, you have to realize that those people are out there. The two rational options to deal with this realization are 1.) Accept it and deal with it, or 2.) Don't cosplay.

One more time, this isn't "victim-blaming." If the creeps are doing something actionable (see the list above), get help. Point them out, shame them, make it blazingly clear that what they're doing isn't acceptable. If they're crossing legal lines in the process, have them arrested, or at least thrown out of the venue. YOU (the cosplayer) are empowered to defend yourself socially. Don't become a shrinking violet over it - that's what the creeps want.

How is this related to the main topic? Getting dressed is somewhat like cosplaying, on a smaller scale. What you wear and how you wear it speaks volumes about you. Maybe you don't realize the image that you're portraying, but (for example) wearing a V-neck blouse and a pendant that nestles in your cleavage is shouting at people to stare at your chest. A lot of popular female fashion is designed to draw attention, either overtly or covertly, to a woman's chest/cleavage. If you wear it, you're going to get that sort of attention, because that's how the clothes are designed. It's not just an accident, and it's not the viewers' faults for looking where the clothing is pointing.

You control how you dress. You control the message you project to the world around you. Even if your options are limited due to finances and locale, there's still a world of options out there. Cheap clothes on eBay are a good way to get things that can't be had locally, or that are too expensive normally.

And this is in no way comparable to rape. None. Zero. Rape results because a rapist decided to rape someone. That's a conscious decision on the part of the rapist, not something caused by clothing. Looking, on the other hand, is a more subconscious action, and is guided and shaped by how we dress, how we act, how we behave, and the enviroment we're in.

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[Ladeeda]

Put me in the camp that has been in sweatpants since age 12 and been cat called and hit on since same age.

If I get followed home by some guy in a car when I'm not even 14, and modestly dressed even then, how can I stop someone from perving on me when I've been perved on while covered to near blindness already? And not even old enough to vote, let alone consent. My breasts are fully covered. My legs are shielded to the ankle. Guys are still making obscene noises in my direction.

How in the world is that MY fault when I've already done everything suggested to stop it, and it hasn't stopped?

[XCashier]

2. Here is an ad for a, ahem, lady's product:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZFY2I-EWQY

Now look at the top comment - "just don't fucking wear a low cut top."

Have you seen the women's clothing section lately? Trying to find a dress shirt that isn't low cut is extremely difficult, especially if you're a larger woman. Even business attire is showing off the goods! For some reason, women's clothing manufacturers seem to think that we're all built like Dolly Parton and want to show off the goods.

So yeah, rather than spend days trying to find something that'll fit, look good and not be cut down to my naval, I'll wear a boob bib if I have to.

[Andara Bledin]

If you have a larger chest, buy men's shirts. Not only more modest, but more durable, and generally they fit better, too.

[Ladeeda]

There's no such thing as modest enough.

You can wear something 3 times your size and be hit on. And if you haven't, consider yourself lucky! I wasn't even old enough to vote when I was followed home by an aggressive guy in a car. Aggressive enough to prompt a neighbor to get in a car and offer me a ride home [safe? who knows? Maybe I got threatened twice in a day]. Covered in baggy wear neck to knees, and scared for my life.

If you think I could have done more to prevent it you are, to be frank, a fucking moron. Because a 12 year old in baggy coverage can't do anything more beyond not exist to stop harassment.

[Kheldarson]

There's no such thing as modest enough.

You can wear something 3 times your size and be hit on. And if you haven't, consider yourself lucky! I wasn't even old enough to vote when I was followed home by an aggressive guy in a car. Aggressive enough to prompt a neighbor to get in a car and offer me a ride home [safe? who knows? Maybe I got threatened twice in a day]. Covered in baggy wear neck to knees, and scared for my life.

If you think I could have done more to prevent it you are, to be frank, a fucking moron. Because a 12 year old in baggy coverage can't do anything more beyond not exist to stop harassment.

Okay. You're right. There's no such thing as modest enough.

So...then what?

Do we round up all the guys who even dare to look at a girl they think is pretty? Who gets to judge what a bad look constitutes?

Do we try to get the men to be not men? Adjust their testosterone levels?

What would you suggest?

I get that you've been harassed and had some tough times, but the point here wasn't the jerks of either gender who are going to harass you anyway. It's the guy next door who can't help a glance when your top slips. The coworker who's trying to figure out where to look. The good friend who doesn't want to be that jerk but you're dressed for the club.

Point was that if you don't like the casual glances, maybe you should help with that by covering a bit more with the product.

But, yeah, that's not going to stop the complete jerks, so why bring them to the table?