Moral Delema? (its not to me)

[Gilhelmi]

Hi guys, I am continuing my auction rant over here because now I am getting into Fratching territory (and I promised the Mods I would work harder on "time and place" thing ). http://www.customerssuck.com/board/s...93#post1222593

I am a comic book dealer. To get stock, I like local auctions. You can find rare gems still, even by accident. My father bought a box of assorted paper. Why? Anyway, at the bottom was a beautiful old Captain America. I had it professionally graded for $85, sold the book for $385. No idea when my father bought it.

I am a Christian Business man. I pride myself on honesty, and a "balanced scale". My "yes is yes, and no is no". If I say that book is worth "X", I will tell you that. Then offer a fair deal (40-60% depending on the difficulty of selling).

I then said to someone I work with (in passing, I was talking about my daydream of finding that rare gem, even if I did not make a dime. Just seeing it would bring me great joy of finding it), that if I found a comic worth tens of thousands (even millions) I would tell the auctioneer so he could set a proper minimum bid. I would then offer to sell it online for a commission. If I did not find that rare prize until I got home (say if I bought a large box "blind"). I would feel obligated to sell the comic for what it is worth, and then give a fair price to the seller from the Auction (say 50-70% depending on circumstance and expenses). My co-workers think that is crazy, telling me that legally it is my comic and my money and I should not be giving money back like that. But is it moral of me?

I know what is legal, I do not care what is legal. I care what is Moral of me.

Am I over-thinking it? I do not think so. I never want a person to think that I intentionally under bid just to make a quick buck. I do not want anyone to question my God because of my actions.

He also bugged me about "wolfs and sheep" saying I was a sheep. I never bought into that theory of business. Sure short term the overly-aggressive and dishonest will do better, but time and time again has shown, that the Firm-moderate and Honest business man will not only have more money, In the Long-Term, but will not have to bribe family and friends to stay.

[HYHYBT]

The first case, where it's a single item for auction the seller doesn't know is valuable, seems to me is going to take care of itself. The odds of that happening are pretty slim to begin with, and even given its happening, I'd think that unless no other bidders also recognize its value, the price should rise to the right neighborhood no matter where it starts. But you wouldn't be hurting anyone (except possibly your own wallet, which is yours to spend that way, so to speak, if you want) so why would people object?

Finding out after the fact is different. Now, I've never been to an auction. But it sounds like something that would have to be in the range between "I'd rather get rid of this in bulk than bother with sifting out what's valuable" and "I've already sifted out what I want and consider the rest basically trash, and if someone will pay me for it, all the better." Either way, they've disposed of it the way they wanted. If you're feeling generous, I can't see why anyone would object to your offering them a share of anything you consider excessive profit; again, it's your money. But I can't see how it would be a moral obligation either, or that there would be anything wrong with another person in the same position keeping it.

[anakhouri]

In business I think it's the seller's responsibility to know what they're selling. If they don't do the research it is entirely their fault if they miss out on a gem. NOw, if you'd like to give some of the profit back that's a lovely thing to do, but not morally necessary IMO.

The exception would be if the comics were, say, 1940's Superman in mint condition or something. I watched some episodes of the show 'Comic Book Men' and usually they would haggle down the price and then resell it for a sometimes considerable profit. But one kid brought in a box of things that had belonged to his grandmother and it was stunning. They told him they couldn't handle a collection like that and sent him to an auction house. After the kid left the store owner said he likely had three-quarters of a million dollars in that box. When that amount of money was involved, I think it was the right thing to do.

[protege]

In business I think it's the seller's responsibility to know what they're selling. If they don't do the research it is entirely their fault if they miss out on a gem. NOw, if you'd like to give some of the profit back that's a lovely thing to do, but not morally necessary IMO.

That's exactly it. If the seller wants to get the maximum value for their merchandise, they have to know what it is. There's not really an excuse for that--there are plenty of websites and message boards with that information. Many sellers simply don't bother. How exactly, is that *my* problem?

Some of you know that I'm into model cars and trains. Nearly all of my car collection is out-of-production kits that I've picked up over the years. Many were bought cheaply. Some of it is simply being in the right place at the right time. Some of it is, is because I know what I'm looking at. I've been building models long enough that I can sort out the shit.

Not long ago, I scored a rather nice 1/12 scale Porsche 935. The last reissue of that kit went for well over $250...and it's sometimes on Ebay for well over $500 I found mine in a dusty room at the local hobby shop. The kit was apparently part of someone's collection, and had been there for years. I asked the shop owner how much he wanted for it, and that was it. Next time I went in, he said I could have it for $50. Seems the kit was part of an estate, and the family wanted it sold. Naturally, I did the deal.

Do I feel bad that the shop could have easily received $200-plus for it? Nope. He offered it to me at the price, I accepted, and it came home with me. I could have easily flipped it on Ebay for multiple times what I paid for it. But, I'm not a seller. I buy my kits to build them.

[s_stabeler]

If you know what something is worth pre-sale, then by all means tell the seller. However, post-sale, it's really up to you. It's not immoral not to, but it's not necessarily stupid either.

[Gilhelmi]

Thing is, no one around my area actually knows (or has the skills to) determine value.

An excellent example was at the sale today. One man swore that the comic were all $10 or more. I knew what they were and their condition. I knew they were worth $5 at most (I am going to ask $5 and settle for $2).

Problem is, no one knows what is and is not valuable, unless it is Depression era glass, a gun, or local artifact. I saw a picture of GAR soldiers around a pre-WW1 monument go for $110, the buyer said that the monument was sold to the government in WW1 for the War Effort and even named a couple of the men (100 years later, that is how well people remember other peoples families. The buyer was not related to any of the men). But at another auction (when I was younger and poorer) I saw an Christmas Ornament sell for $10 that I knew was worth $75+.

If on the off chance on finding something even worth $200 (rare but happens a couple times a year), that same man would have only driven the price up to $5 (maybe $10). Now I would not have much problem with that because of my overhead (getting it graded so it could be sold for $200 instead of less then $100. Because condition is everything, and pro grading is vital to prove it is worth 200, as prices vary greatly between 4.0-6.0), I would not be worrying about it much. BUT...

I live in Rural Kansas, if word gets around that I made a massive amount (over $1000) on a single comic, then people would judge me on that (I might not be in the legal or moral wrong, but it might make some people question my integrity). And, in this area, reputation is significant. It would be hard to sell tomorrow if it was hurt.

Protege, You say that but I do not think you understand how the sellers or Auctioneers. They are older (meaning 70s for the sellers and late 50s for the auctioneer). Many of the older folk in this area still do not know how-to use a computer. The Auction I went to did not even use one for their seller tags (the notes that tell the office what you bough or how much you paid). I wish they would learn, but I suspect it won't be until the next generation takes over that it will happen in this area.

[BlaqueKatt]

If you know what something is worth pre-sale, then by all means tell the seller. However, post-sale, it's really up to you. It's not immoral not to, but it's not necessarily stupid either.

I'd say some people would wrongly assume the OP knew the value and lowballed to make profit, because some do that(not sure the number, because mindreading would be required), and it's easier to believe the worst about someone(actor-observer bias), because "aunt Thelma once sold a genuine tiffany snorkel cleaner worth millions to an antique dealer who told her it was only worth a nickel".

Especially with shows like "merican pickers*" where they buy stuff for $20 knowing they have a buyer who'll pay $2000, preying on the ignorance of the seller AND bragging about it.

So, if Gilhelmi's ethical code says "I should give the seller a share of profits", it's his choice, and no one else's business.


*I dislike reality shows in general, and know most are staged, but this one just really irks my sense of "fair play" as it were, and I refuse to call it by it's proper name.

And Gilhelmi, I've also told people selling stuff they were asking too little, and people looking to "flip" the item in question, have gotten REALLY angry about it. Especially at charity thrift stores(I generally don't judge people, but when they have a tablet or smartphone out looking up values on items and try to haggle a lower price to increase *their* profit by a few dollars*, yeah I'll judge).

*fictitious example based on actual sighting:
"ooo, that's a genuine Steiff bear from 19-dickety-seven, it's valued at $10,000, and priced at $5, I'll haggle them down to $1 because there's a single broken stitch and a scratch on the glass eye."(the vehicle they drove is the company van with "honest Pete's Annteeks"plastered on the side.)

[HYHYBT]

I live in Rural Kansas, if word gets around that I made a massive amount (over $1000) on a single comic, then people would judge me on that (I might not be in the legal or moral wrong, but it might make some people question my integrity). And, in this area, reputation is significant. It would be hard to sell tomorrow if it was hurt.

That changes things: it's no longer a question of being moral or ethical, but of being seen to be by those you want to do business with in the future. And in that case, unless you'd make enough to retire on...

[bainsidhe]

I think if your moral compass is telling you to share wealth back to the seller, then by all means do it.

For some reason this discussion reminds me of the stories I've read, where homebuyers find money hidden away in their home by a previous owner. Do they return the money to the previous owners or their estate? In some cases the answer seems easy (for me). In others, not so much. Let's just say there are a lot of situations where I would stay quiet and enjoy the money myself.

[s_stabeler]

For some reason this discussion reminds me of the stories I've read, where homebuyers find money hidden away in their home by a previous owner. Do they return the money to the previous owners or their estate? In some cases the answer seems easy (for me). In others, not so much. Let's just say there are a lot of situations where I would stay quiet and enjoy the money myself.

depends- if I'd juts moved in, i'd send the money to the previous owners. If, however, it had been a while, then I would keep it.

[wolfie]

How about this hypothetical situation? Offered as one lot at an auction is "6 boxes of comic books". The auctioneer has opened one of the bankers' boxes and pulled out a fistful of the comics to show a representative sample. Out of the 3" stack, there are a couple that you'd be able to get $2 each for, and one that you'd get $5, the rest being worthless (i.e. nickel or less retail). You bid on the basis of the lot having roughly $300 of retail value (each box holding 15" of comics, assuming that there are a couple $10 finds in the lot so each box would be worth $50 retail rather than $45 as calculated from a pure extrapolation). You win the auction, and haul the 6 boxes home.

Going through the boxes, you find that one of them (not the one opened by the auctioneer) contains an Action Comics #1 (for those not familiar, that's Superman's debut). Clearly nobody went through the boxes comic-by-comic, or that one would have been pulled to be auctioned separately.

Based on the information provided by the auctioneer (i.e. the fistful of comics he pulled out of the first box), you (a relative expert) evaluated the lot as having a retail value of $300, so your bid was probably $150 or less. Post-auction, you find that it was actually worth over a million. Do you go back and pay the seller an additional half-million?

[Gilhelmi]

I would never base a value of a lot over looking at a small representation, I would always look at all of them. But if for some reason that were not possible, then Yes I would.

Only exception would be an abandoned storage unit, but only because I knew the lot to be fully abandoned by the seller.