Words for 'racial' groups, for when it's needed...

[Seshat]

We started to have a bit of a talk about using 'black' to describe dark-skinned people in "How to Get Fired 101" over on Customers Suck.
It happened because I mentioned that Nichelle Nichols was an inspiration to black people and to women, when she played Lt Uhura on Star Trek: Original Series.

I'm moving the discussion to here.

Consider this post the intro post and backreference; I'll start my own thoughts in my next post in this thread.

[Seshat]

Okay.

Sometimes it's significant to refer to people as 'dark-skinned' or 'light-skinned', especially when referring to historic events (eg Nichelle Nichols being inspirational).

Sometimes it's significant to refer to a person's ethnic origin, especially in medical situations (eg, people of European origin are more resistant to the Black Death - y pestis - than those of other origins).

Sometimes it matters to identify a person as specifically of African descent, other times a thing affects everyone with dark skin - including many Pacific Islanders, Maori (NZ) and the various Australian native peoples.

Or similarly, there might be something which affects people from the eastern Asian subgroups, but not those from the Indian subcontinent.

Once, I wanted to describe the tightly-kinked hair that's (almost) unique to certain subgroups of those of African origin, and that goes so beautifully into intricate cornrows. And the sentence above was about the only way I could figure it out.


I honestly have no idea how to describe ANY of this, except by using terms like 'of X descent/origin' or - when you want to describe all fair-skinned or dark-skinned people - 'X-skinned' or 'of X skin colour'. Or heck, high-melanin/low-melanin, if you wish.


Opinions?

[TheHuckster]

Frankly, it annoys me when people nitpick these issues, especially when the author using the words meant no offense.

If someone misspoke and mentioned someone was from China when they were from Taiwan, just correct the person and move on. It's no more "racist" than if a Canadian were mistaken for someone from the US or someone from Estonia were mistaken for someone from Finland. Yes, you should take care not to make such assumptions, but it's less a race issue and more a global awareness issue. It's an embarrassing mistake, for sure, and I'm sure it could be annoying to someone who this happens to a lot, but accusing the perpetrator of being racist does nothing to help the situation.

The whole "let's use more words to describe people to feel less racist" trend is also a thorn on my side. Yes, if it makes you feel better to say "he is a person whose melanin concentration is higher/lower in January than the average American" then by all means, that's your choice. I'd rather you not judge me if I simply call them white or black, because that's the most non-offensive yet descriptive way to describe one's skin color if such a distinction needs to be made. Those who take offense, IMO, are inventing reasons to feel offended. That is, unless the speaker's inflection implies distaste or hatred, in which case I'll argue that one can use that same inflection no matter which words they use to describe someone else.

[Gilhelmi]

How to word this? This is what I said before.

I forget where, but I saw an old *negro man say this.

"I am not from Africa, and nether were my parents."

*Regarding the word "Negro", he said

"I have been giving to the United Negro College Fund for over 50 years. I am not going to stop saying that word now."

I wish I could have meet that old man, he and I would have gotten along well. (I do not like semantics either). I really wish I could find the place I saw him again.

I see the use of "African American" as a bit racist. If a white person moved from Africa and becomes an American citizen, would they not also be an "African American"? Would you call a black person, who has never been to America, and is not a citizen, an African American?

I believe that most people who get annoyed at the "PC Police" in our society, most of their frustration is tied back to the use of once commonly accepted words (with no hostile intent, but other people added it, like 'Negro') suddenly becoming racist.

When I worked at the Nursing home, sometimes the residents would slip-up and use the words they were familiar with when growing up. Even in my relatively short life-time, I have seen the word 'black' become offensive then back to being acceptable again (I have seen this happen with many other words as well).

[TheHuckster]

I believe that most people who get annoyed at the "PC Police" in our society, most of their frustration is tied back to the use of once commonly accepted words (with no hostile intent, but other people added it, like 'Negro') suddenly becoming racist.

This is what irks me as well. I'm starting to see a new trend of people trying to claim "thug" is a racist term, even though I and pretty much everyone I know have used "thug" to describe any big, strong criminal regardless of their skin color.

If you're using a term derogatorily, like the r-word, or saying something is "gay" as a synonym for "uncool" then that's when you are using that word insultingly and people who wish not to offend should refrain from using it.

But if you're simply describing one as 'black' or 'white' just like pretty much everyone else has without any negative connotations, having the PC crowd start stomping on that is what, IMO, starts to make people become anti-PC and it will have the opposite effect on trying to stop the more truly offensive words.

[s_stabeler]

It really depends on context. If a word is used to deliberately cause offence, then it is fine to challenge it. However, when a word is used simply as a descriptor- that is, to describe someone who'se dark-skinned as black, or something similar- then it should be ignored.

Also, some context is important- for example, Negro isn't actually inherently offensive- indeed, until the 1960s, it was actually the PC term for black people, and black was actually considered offensive- and so in a period work, it's best to ignore the use of negro as a reference to back people, since it is used primarily for period purposes.

That, and for fiction works, it's always a good idea to bear in mind when a work was written- taking offence to a fiction book that includes attitudes acceptable when it was written is generally silly.

[KabeRinnaul]

I see the use of "African American" as a bit racist. If a white person moved from Africa and becomes an American citizen, would they not also be an "African American"? Would you call a black person, who has never been to America, and is not a citizen, an African American?

Dave Matthews has been known to joke that he's the only African-American in his band. He was born in South Africa, while of the four black members of the band (past and present), three are from Virginia, and the last was born on the US Virgin Islands (and the other white guys are from California, Massachusetts, and Germany).

I've also heard of an American reporter interviewing a black British athlete and calling him "African-American" despite his insistence that he was neither.

[Rageaholic]

What Huckster said.

All this kind of thing does is make people feel like they're walking on eggshells when they're around said minorities. And that doesn't do equality any favors.

[TheHuckster]

It really depends on context. If a word is used to deliberately cause offence, then it is fine to challenge it.

Which I should point out is true for virtually any word, not just words regarding ethnicity and race. I could use context to make "cashier" sound derogatory, but it doesn't make "cashier" a derogatory term, because whatever word you use in place of "cashier" would be just as negative sounding because of the context that was used.

[HYHYBT]

The thing with "thug" is that it can get a bit dog-whistly. And some also will see a tough-looking black guy and label him "thug" while an otherwise-similar white guy they wouldn't.

[TheHuckster]

But that, again, is about the context of the usage of the word rather than the word itself. You can say the same thing about "gang" or "punk."

If you describe any black person as a thug, then yes, you're not only using that word incorrectly but offensively. That doesn't mean one should consider the word itself to be bad and, by doing so, you're putting an ineffective bandaid on the bigger issue. If "thug" becomes less popular because people believe it has racist connotations, then the racists who had previously abused that term are going to find the next inoffensive term and then make that the new "thug."

[HYHYBT]

Quite true. I didn't mean to imply that the word shouldn't be used for its proper meaning.

[Gravekeeper]

Yeah, the problem with "thug" is its become a dogwhistle term for people upset they can't say the n word in public anymore. Even Obama ( heck, and the FLOTUS ) has been repeatedly referred to as a thug or thuggish in the conservative....whatever they call it. Lunacy sphere? Its the new code word.

[wolfie]

But if you're simply describing one as 'black' or 'white' just like pretty much everyone else has without any negative connotations, having the PC crowd start stomping on that is what, IMO, starts to make people become anti-PC and it will have the opposite effect on trying to stop the more truly offensive words.

The way I see this is as follows:

You have 2 co-workers named Mike. One of them is the expert in a certain subject, and you're trying to direct someone to the correct Mike. The 2 Mikes have visible differences. They could be:

Short Mike and Tall Mike
Fat Mike and Thin Mike
Bald Mike and Long-haired Mike

In this context, I'd have no problem calling them Black Mike and White Mike (assuming this was the visible difference).

[s_stabeler]

Which I should point out is true for virtually any word, not just words regarding ethnicity and race. I could use context to make "cashier" sound derogatory, but it doesn't make "cashier" a derogatory term, because whatever word you use in place of "cashier" would be just as negative sounding because of the context that was used.

true- but there are a couple different terms which are only ever used in a derogatory fashion. (nigger comes to mind)

basically, my point can be summarised as don't look for reasons to be offended. If someone says something offensive, then fine- but don't pick apart what someone says trying to find something offensive.