Great article from Jared Kushner

[Kheldarson]

Now, let me call you a racist. Prove you're not.

See the problem?

There is no problem. To prove you're not a racist or bigot, you can point to a history of no remarks that judge people according to their race/heritage, religion, or sexuality/gender. If you own a business, you can point to a highly varied workforce, that pays equally according to merit and position, no matter what your physical features.


In Trump's case though, he is making statements day after day that wink to or are absolutely racist and bigoted and then having to explain them away. The quotes and actions that are being brought up are from his public tweets, interviews, speeches, etc. It's not like people have to go looking for it.

[mjr]

But there is a problem.

Look. There are things that are blatantly offensive and racist. The problem is, just saying something is racist because you don't like it doesn't make it racist.

If I think we need beefed up border security, that doesn't make me racist, despite what people may think. Maybe I think it's a health and/or national security issue.

remarks that judge people according to their race/heritage, religion, or sexuality/gender.

Honestly, have you ever, in your life, done this? At all? And you're talking about bigotry, not necessarily racism. But to that end, I've been accused several times (even by some on this forum) of being a bigot, simply because I'm mostly Conservative on a lot of issues.

Is this organization racist?

What about this organization?

If so, why? If not, why not?

[Kheldarson]

But there is a problem.

Look. There are things that are blatantly offensive and racist. The problem is, just saying something is racist because you don't like it doesn't make it racist.

If I think we need beefed up border security, that doesn't make me racist, despite what people may think. Maybe I think it's a health and/or national security issue.

Honestly, have you ever, in your life, done this? At all? And you're talking about bigotry, not necessarily racism. But to that end, I've been accused several times (even by some on this forum) of being a bigot, simply because I'm mostly Conservative on a lot of issues.

Is this organization racist?

What about this organization?

If so, why? If not, why not?

Neither one is racist. An argument may be made for potentially bigoted, but one provides a product for a specific demographic, much like kosher or an anime network, due to a specific niche that isn't filled by other means. The second is a scholarship fund that supports a particular criteria, much like many others. I got a scholarship for having a grandfather who went to a particular high school. Scholarships are allowed to set criteria, including family background, as a means to support an ideal, family line, socioeconomic position, etc.

But none of this is actually disproving that Trump is a racist. Either show how the bulk of his statements are complete lies (again, these are all things he's said on record) or misunderstood (by showing a better context for the quotes and speeches) or please admit the bigotry and racism. I'd be more than happy to actually discuss a different goalpost then.

[mjr]

But none of this is actually disproving that Trump is a racist. Either show how the bulk of his statements are complete lies (again, these are all things he's said on record) or misunderstood (by showing a better context for the quotes and speeches) or please admit the bigotry and racism. I'd be more than happy to actually discuss a different goalpost then.

I basically already did that, with this link:

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/03/tru...-duke-amnesia/

And again, "Mexican" isn't a race any more than "Canadian" or "American" is a race.

Trump referred to Cruz several times as "Canadian", and nobody really cared (except maybe Canadians...)

[Kheldarson]

I basically already did that, with this link:

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/03/tru...-duke-amnesia/

And again, "Mexican" isn't a race any more than "Canadian" or "American" is a race.

Trump referred to Cruz several times as "Canadian", and nobody really cared (except maybe Canadians...)

You addressed one point out of many and think that proves he's not racist?

I've also not used Mexican as the defining term for the group he targets. I've used Hispanic, the caregory into which the majority of Mexicans fall, according to the sociological definition of race. Said definition also provides the basis for the definition of racism.

So we're all on the same page, a couple of definitions:

The term race or racial group refers to dividing the human species according to physical characteristics that are inherited.[1] The most widely used human racial types are those based on visual traits (such as skin colour, cranial, facial features, or type of hair).[2]

From https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(sociology)

Or for a more technical definition:

In other words, for sociologists, race refers to two characteristics: (a) physical differences, that (b) societies treat as significant and as warranting differential treatment.

From https://globalsociology.pbworks.com/...nd%20Ethnicity)


So when Trump implies that somebody who has the same features as another group despite not being of that group might be biased against him for his statements against the primary group, guess what? He's being racist.

When he declares the Hispanics love him? The blacks love him? The Jews love him? He's being racist.

[mjr]

So when Trump implies that somebody who has the same features as another group despite not being of that group might be biased against him for his statements against the primary group, guess what? He's being racist.

When he declares the Hispanics love him? The blacks love him? The Jews love him? He's being racist.

So basically, you're saying that no matter what he says about them (good or bad), he's being racist?

Is that really what you're saying?

[Kheldarson]

So basically, you're saying that no matter what he says about them (good or bad), he's being racist?

Is that really what you're saying?

When he treats them as monoliths, as being all the same, yes. Racism is about painting groups with all the same brush.

There's a massive difference between saying "the Hispanics love me" (implication: all of this particular racial group loves me) and "I have many supporters within the Hispanic community" (implication: recognition of individuality as well as ethnicity and that the Hispanic community isn't a hivemind).

It's a mild racism, but paired with his more explicit statements, it becomes another example.

[Gravekeeper]

For the article, I'm just going to quote Jared's relatives:

Jacob Schulder, another cousin, went even further in a comment on Marc Kushner’s post, writing: “When an out of touch with reality nominee hires an out of touch with reality campaign manager, who is also a son*-in-*law, you get the BS Jared wrote. I don't think Trump is an anti*Semite; I think he's a lying idiot (among other things) with little to no experiences outside his teetering fiefdom of failed development projects, divorces, bankrupted sports leagues, fraudulent 'Universities' and golf courses (and the list keeps going). The very first thing a responsible campaign manager should do, I'd think, and I mean the very first thing, would be to take away his father-*in*-law's Twitter account. Even Joseph Kushner would've had the street smarts to figure that one out while living on boiled potatoes in the forest.”

He continued: “That my grandparents have been dragged into this is a shame. Thank you Jared for using something sacred and special to the descendants of Joe and Rae Kushner to validate the sloppy manner in which you've handled this campaign. From the references to 'Palestine' at the AIPAC conference (which got Donald jeered) to the justification of the itchy Twitter fingers your father*in*law has, you've managed to further prove what so many of us have known for many years. Kudos to you for having gone this far; no one expected this. But for the sake of the family name, which may have no meaning to you but still has meaning to others, please don't invoke our grandparents in vain just so you can sleep better at night. It is self serving and disgusting.”

As for the thread: This is a new low even for you mjr. Trump is indefensible. This has gone on long past the point of he "misspoke" or his words were "misrepresented" or any of the usual BS excuses politicians use.

He is a self serving, narcissistic, xenophobic demagogue and here you are trying to defend him by what? Arguing over the technical definition of racism? You should honestly be ashamed of yourself. If not apologize to your fellow Americans here for the damage you're willfully supporting being done to your country.

[mjr]

As for the thread: This is a new low even for you mjr. Trump is indefensible. This has gone on long past the point of he "misspoke" or his words were "misrepresented" or any of the usual BS excuses politicians use.

He is a self serving, narcissistic, xenophobic demagogue and here you are trying to defend him by what? Arguing over the technical definition of racism? You should honestly be ashamed of yourself. If not apologize to your fellow Americans here for the damage you're willfully supporting being done to your country.

Conservative = bad, Liberal = good. Got it.

I'm not even voting for the guy this year, not that it's any of your business. And I'll apologize for nothing; because I have nothing to apologize for. I have my beliefs, Mr. Trump has his. You're trying to make a "guilt by association" and failing at it.

Will you apologize for Hillary mishandling classified emails and possibly causing a national security risk? I doubt it. And why should you?

I've said before that I'm basically Conservative, and I make no bones about it. That doesn't mean I'm racist, no matter how much you want it to mean that. It doesn't make sense to me, personally, to be racist.

It does make sense to me to support national security, and to know who comes into and out of the U.S. But apparently that makes me racist.

My overall point in this thread is, and I'll make this as clear as possible: We must use care when using the term "racist" with, you know, actual racists.

You can say Mr. Trump is "indefensible" if you want, and that's fine. I really don't care. I don't keep up with enough of what he says in full context.

Discount/Discredit whatever you want. Politicians, media, and pundits do that on both sides, anyway. No skin off my back.

You obviously already have a rather low opinion of me, and that's fine. I've never met you, and probably never will. And that's cool. I'm assuming that since I'm Conservative nothing I can really say will improve your opinion of me that much, so I don't really worry about it.

[Kheldarson]

Conservative = bad, Liberal = good. Got it.

That isn't what GK said.

You posted a piece defending Donald Trump's latest bout of racial insensitivity and called it great. This indicates that you agree with the position of the piece.

You then proceeded to defend Trump (poorly) and try to attack the idea that racism even exists, or, if it does, it exists only in the minds of those who claim it. These are all positions that are typically held by racists.

Which isn't a Conservative vs. Liberal thing, btw. There's racists and bigots in both camps. More are coming out on the Republican side though, thanks to Trump.

So we're back to the "if it looks like a duck" issue.

[Gravekeeper]

Conservative = bad, Liberal = good. Got it.

No. Enough. You can play your little partisan baiting games and strawman shit with Romney, Mccain, hell even Bush. But Trump is a legitimately awful and morally repugnant human being. It has nothing to do with your political baseball teams. He is universally terrible.

I don't give a shit whether you're liberal or conservative. I'm not American to begin with. This isn't about sides. This about your country. If you want to go around "stigginit" to The Libs(tm) or whatever the hell it is you think you're doing by all means. But Trump is legitimately prostate cancer up the ass of American democracy and he needs to be universally and unequivocally rejected by both sides of the political spectrum.

This election is too important for this distracting partisan bullshit. Do something about the future of your country beyond baiting people in political threads. Because we all have to live with the consequences given America's position in the world.

I don't keep up with enough of what he says in full context.

And that's your fault, not ours. So don't start threads about shit you fully admit you're not even following.

[mjr]

But Trump is a legitimately awful and morally repugnant human being. It has nothing to do with your political baseball teams. He is universally terrible.

In my opinion, Hillary's not much better. Which is why neither of them are getting my vote.

he needs to be universally and unequivocally rejected by both sides of the political spectrum.

Perhaps you missed where I said I'm not voting for him. But I'll say it again so I'm perfectly clear: I'm not voting for him.

This election is too important for this distracting partisan bullshit. Do something about the future of your country beyond baiting people in political threads. Because we all have to live with the consequences given America's position in the world.

We've been told that for the past few elections. It hasn't changed anything.

And that's your fault, not ours. So don't start threads about shit you fully admit you're not even following.

Excuse me for having other things I'm currently working on. And I never said I wasn't following it. Just not following it as closely as others.

Your opinion, of course. And I'll start threads about whatever I want to. What are you gonna do? Report me to the mods?

<sarcasm>
Oh, look! Someone on the Internet doesn't like me!
</sarcasm>

[mjr]

That isn't what GK said.

You posted a piece defending Donald Trump's latest bout of racial insensitivity and called it great. This indicates that you agree with the position of the piece.

I defended nothing. I merely pointed out that the article made a valid point about the usage of the word "racist". That's all.

You then proceeded to defend Trump (poorly) and try to attack the idea that racism even exists, or, if it does, it exists only in the minds of those who claim it.

Show me exactly where I said that. Hint: You can't. Because I didn't.

These are all positions that are typically held by racists.

...And there it is. I was waiting on that to happen, and it did. The implication that I'm racist.

There's racists and bigots in both camps.

Then why do people conveniently forget this?

So we're back to the "if it looks like a duck" issue.

Sure...but only if you apply that to all politicians and all people. Does this mean Hillary really is nefarious?

[Gravekeeper]

In my opinion, Hillary's not much better. Which is why neither of them are getting my vote.

Hillary is much better. Which is not to say she is wonderful or anything, she isn't, far from it. But for fark sakes at least she's competent and doesn't have the temperament of an irate toddler that was left unsupervised at a KKK rally.

The worst Hillary will do is give you a third term of Obama without any of the charm or charisma while compulsively hiding office memos under her mattress. Trump on the other hand is basically declaring to the world you'd like to be West Korea and every negative stereotype about Americans is completely true.

I wish there were more options on the table but this is your two party system at work. But you can complain about the brakes not working properly after you steer the car away from the cliff.

We've been told that for the past few elections. It hasn't changed anything.

If you can't see the difference here you seriously need to be paying more attention. You have to live in this country one way or another and we have to live with you.

So yes, I am irritated and completely sick of partisan bait games like the ones you start on here. No, I'm not going to "report you to the mods" because you tread a line fine enough to avoid breaking the rules.

That does not, however, mean I can't call you out on your shit.

[Talon]

Conservative = bad, Liberal = good. Got it.

I'm assuming that since I'm Conservative nothing I can really say will improve your opinion of me that much, so I don't really worry about it.

My turn to roll my eyes in amusement.

By the way, no one's forcing you to post intellectually lazy arguments.

But if you like feeling persecuted when your weak arguments are shot down, well everyone's got to have a hobby I suppose.