Presidential debates

[HYHYBT]

The town I'm in just does one combined bill for water, gas, electric, and trash, regardless of whether you're a renter, homeowner, or business. But I don't remember any requirement that both proofs of residency had to be utility bills.

[mjr]

An ID, though, first of all, has a fee attached to it. If you're part of the working poor who has to make every dollar count, even $5 may be over your limit. Then there's the time cost of getting to the DMV to get the ID. That's time on a bus, possibly added child care costs, or the costs of the headache of bringing your kids with, and that's assuming there's a bus that can take you to the DMV in your area.

But how many of the "working poor" have cars? How many of the "working poor" DON'T have some form of ID? I don't know about you, but I've had to provide some form of ID for pretty much every job I've ever had.

Not to mention, some purchases (i.e. alcohol, firearms) will sometimes require ID.

In fact, here's an article from 2013 that shows 24 things that require ID:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/24...rticle/2534254

1. Alcohol
2. Cigarettes
3. Opening a bank account
4. Apply for food stamps
5. Apply for welfare
6. Apply for Medicaid/Social Security
7. Apply for unemployment or a job
8. Rent/buy a house, apply for a mortgage
9. Drive/buy/rent a car
10. Get on an airplane
11. Get married
12. Purchase a gun
13. Adopt a pet
14. Rent a hotel room
15. Apply for a hunting license
16. Apply for a fishing license
17. Buy a cell phone
18. Visit a casino
19. Pick up a prescription
20. Hold a rally or protest
21. Blood donations
22. Buy an "M" rated video game
23. Purchase nail polish at CVS
24. Purchase certain cold medicines

I'll further with:

http://dailysignal.com/2016/08/26/am...uires-ids-for/

That's why voter ID is an issue: it presumes that everybody is in the same economic position when they're not, thus causing disenfranchisement.

It also makes sure that you're legally eligible to vote (and vote once), and that you are who you say you are.

[TheHuckster]

I understand some of the things you're saying, mjr. It's true that without an ID there are a LOT of things that are more difficult to do, although typically the age-related stuff (cigs and alcohol) is no longer an issue after a certain age. And for something as important as fair voting, I'd like to see safeguards to ensure there's no funny business going on.

However, the fact of the matter is, if there's any cost directly involved with the voting process, and that includes paying even a dime for an ID you're required to show in order to vote, then it's a slam dunk unconstitutional case for the supreme court. Let's replace the ID with, say, a "receipt" of sorts that proves you pre-paid for the privilege to vote. It's a bit more clear as to what the problem is if you think of it that way.

I'd be more open to voter ID laws if there were less barriers to prove your ability to vote than there are now. As it stands currently, a lot of the ID laws should be struck down as unconstitutional unless there's a free and unhindered way to attain those IDs.

[mjr]

It's true that without an ID there are a LOT of things that are more difficult to do

And I'm sure you'd agree that is a valid point. Does that mean that "the working poor" (who, in a lot of places can't work without an ID) can't do those things?

after a certain age. And for something as important as fair voting, I'd like to see safeguards to ensure there's no funny business going on.

Presenting valid ID would be one of those safeguards.

However, the fact of the matter is, if there's any cost directly involved with the voting process, and that includes paying even a dime for an ID you're required to show in order to vote, then it's a slam dunk unconstitutional case for the supreme court. Let's replace the ID with, say, a "receipt" of sorts that proves you pre-paid for the privilege to vote. It's a bit more clear as to what the problem is if you think of it that way.

In theory, driving to the polls and standing in line are "costs" directly involved in the voting process. Mainly through time, but possibly someone may have to get a babysitter or any other number of things that could be (again, in theory) considered a "cost".

I'd be more open to voter ID laws if there were less barriers to prove your ability to vote than there are now. As it stands currently, a lot of the ID laws should be struck down as unconstitutional unless there's a free and unhindered way to attain those IDs.

Some places have multiple forms of ID that can be used. How many is enough?

It's fairly easy, though, in my opinion. If you have to go down to actually register to vote, why not set it up where you can present your information there, and get your ID (at no cost) WHILE you register?

[s_stabeler]

because then the ID is literally useless compared to the registration itself being the sole requirement to vote.

Having said that, there is a simple rule, as I have said previously. How many legitimate voters are disenfranchised compared to the number of fraudulent votes prevented. For the various voter ID laws, the answer is generally "more legitimate voters disenfranchised" therefore, the laws are unfair.

[mjr]

because then the ID is literally useless compared to the registration itself being the sole requirement to vote.

Having said that, there is a simple rule, as I have said previously. How many legitimate voters are disenfranchised compared to the number of fraudulent votes prevented. For the various voter ID laws, the answer is generally "more legitimate voters disenfranchised" therefore, the laws are unfair.

Not really. Because the ID would have your photo on it.

Heck, when I was a fast food worker and went to go get some kind of certification I can't remember...I had to show a photo ID. I took a "tech" certification once way back when. I had to show a photo ID. I'm planning on taking another in the near future. I'm going to have to show a photo ID. Why? So that they make sure that the right person is there to take the test.

Disenfranchisement also comes in the form of "I got to the polls and they told me I voted already."

[s_stabeler]

I was counting that situation in the "fraudulent votes prevented" column. to make it clearer, what I mean is :
1) How many legitimate voters are prevented from voting because of the proposed law
2) How many votes that are submitted fraudulently- that is, a vote cast by someone other than the eligible voter ( duplicate votes count because the extra votes would presumably either be somewhere they aren't actually eligible or under someone else's name)- are prevented by the proposed law.

Most voter ID laws have more in group 1 than group 2. As such, they are inherently unconstitutional since you cannot constitutionally impose blanket prohibitions on voting (felony disenfranchisement is a special case- to cut a long story short, it is held to be part of the punishment for the felony, rather than being a ban on voting for a category of people. It's controversial though, and I'll leave it at that,)

[mjr]

I was counting that situation in the "fraudulent votes prevented" column. to make it clearer, what I mean is :
1) How many legitimate voters are prevented from voting because of the proposed law
2) How many votes that are submitted fraudulently- that is, a vote cast by someone other than the eligible voter ( duplicate votes count because the extra votes would presumably either be somewhere they aren't actually eligible or under someone else's name)- are prevented by the proposed law.

Most voter ID laws have more in group 1 than group 2. As such, they are inherently unconstitutional since you cannot constitutionally impose blanket prohibitions on voting (felony disenfranchisement is a special case- to cut a long story short, it is held to be part of the punishment for the felony, rather than being a ban on voting for a category of people. It's controversial though, and I'll leave it at that,)

I would be curious, though, how many registered voters (or voting-aged individuals) these laws actually affect.

In other words, if a Voter ID law were enacted, how many people are actually disenfranchised, compared to the number of people we're told will be.

There's a difference in those two things. Because you could argue that even having to register to vote could be a form of disenfranchisement. So therefore we should do away with registering to vote.

Many people who are of voting age don't register, and don't vote. That's their choice. We can't make people vote.

[TheHuckster]

In theory, driving to the polls and standing in line are "costs" directly involved in the voting process. Mainly through time, but possibly someone may have to get a babysitter or any other number of things that could be (again, in theory) considered a "cost".

First, those are costs that can be mitigated. You can ask someone to drive you there, or you can choose to go at a time when it's not as busy.

Second, they are costs that cannot be avoided. No matter what, it's going to take you time, and unless you somehow bend the laws of physics, it will always be that way. Paying for an ID is something that isn't inherent to the experience. States can make IDs free, for instance.

Some places have multiple forms of ID that can be used. How many is enough?

One that is free. That's it.

It's fairly easy, though, in my opinion. If you have to go down to actually register to vote, why not set it up where you can present your information there, and get your ID (at no cost) WHILE you register?

That is one method I would support in order to satisfy both those who want to minimize voter fraud while remaining constitutional. As far as I know, nobody has proposed such a method in congress.

[mjr]

That is one method I would support in order to satisfy both those who want to minimize voter fraud while remaining constitutional. As far as I know, nobody has proposed such a method in congress.

It wouldn't be difficult to do.

I have a feeling people would still be against it, though. Because reasons.

[HYHYBT]

if it's not difficult to do, show how to do it. Absolutely necessary requirements include, but are not limited to, the ID and any document you need in order to get it being free and readily available to all eligible people. That means, among other things, not being susceptible to stunts like closing the DMVs or whatever or restricting their hours in districts that lean against the party in control. Not running into the problem of rounding up a birth certificate when the courthouse holding yours is hundreds of miles away and requires you go there and show ID to get it, or in some cases the original no longer exists. It means, in general, actively preventing its being more difficult for demographics likely to vote one way than for the other, even in ways you can pretend don't have that effect.

Nothing less will do, and no excuses.

[Anthony K. S.]

I would like to offer an additional thought :

Whatever Voter I.D. requirement that you can come up with, it has to be something that a homeless person can be reasonably expected to have.

[mjr]

if it's not difficult to do, show how to do it. Absolutely necessary requirements include, but are not limited to, the ID and any document you need in order to get it being free and readily available to all eligible people. That means, among other things, not being susceptible to stunts like closing the DMVs or whatever or restricting their hours in districts that lean against the party in control. Not running into the problem of rounding up a birth certificate when the courthouse holding yours is hundreds of miles away and requires you go there and show ID to get it, or in some cases the original no longer exists. It means, in general, actively preventing its being more difficult for demographics likely to vote one way than for the other, even in ways you can pretend don't have that effect.

Nothing less will do, and no excuses.

I've already explained that, but perhaps I can do so one more time. And there's a part I mentioned earlier that appears to have been glossed over, so I will bold, italicize, and capitalize it:

YOU MUST BE REGISTERED TO VOTE

What are the requirements to register to vote?

Here are the requirements in Texas:

--Be a US citizen (super important)
--Be at least 17 years and 10 months to register, and be 18 by Election Day, Nov 8, to vote
--Live at a Texas address (so no one from out of state can vote in Texas)
--Not serving a sentence (including probation or parole) for a felony conviction
--Not currently judged incompetent by a court

So, how does one prove those first two? Generally speaking, I would presume, with a valid SSN and/or birth certificate. Correct?

And that's to register.

But again, I don't see an issue with having legislation where one can get a taxpayer-funded ID when they register to vote.

Again, you have to show up somewhere to register, if I'm not mistaken. You can't get your ID from that same place? I don't see the problem with doing it that way.

[NecCat]

I've already explained that, but perhaps I can do so one more time. And there's a part I mentioned earlier that appears to have been glossed over, so I will bold, italicize, and capitalize it:

YOU MUST BE REGISTERED TO VOTE

What are the requirements to register to vote?

Here are the requirements in Texas:
....
--Live at a Texas address (so no one from out of state can vote in Texas)
....

That immediately eliminates the homeless, who by definition don't live at an address, even though they may live in Texas and be eligible to vote in Texas by the rights afforded to them. That is one of the major problems with almost every voter ID law that has been enacted or proposed.

But again, I don't see an issue with having legislation where one can get a taxpayer-funded ID when they register to vote.

Again, you have to show up somewhere to register, if I'm not mistaken. You can't get your ID from that same place? I don't see the problem with doing it that way.

It seems pointless, since it completely eliminates any opportunity for voter fraud that the ID laws are supposed to be proposed to eliminate. Either you have ID to register, and don't need the free ID, or you don't so you won't be allowed to register. Or would the registration process now skip the ID part?



From another thread:

[QUOTE=mjr;167191Oh, this is RICH!!!

Gravekeeper is bitching at me, yet CANADA (where I believe he is, if I'm not mistaken) actually HAS voter ID laws...

Oh, the irony..
[/QUOTE]

I can't speak for all of Canada, since I've only lived as an adult in Ontario, but I'll be happy to give you some information on how both ID's and voting work here. Hopefully that will help you get some ideas to propose for voter ID laws that won't disenfranchise potential legal voters, while still allowing your government to limit voter fraud.

From my experience as a temporarily homeless person:
- Replacement birth certificates and SIN cards are fairly inexpensive, and can be ordered both in person and through the mail.
- Almost any homeless shelter or homeless assistance organization can help you acquire things like that (by allowing you to use their post box service at a minimum).
- All homeless shelters and homeless assistance organizations will organize appointments with you and a social worker, who will assist with things like welfare, food banks, etc. Even without an address you can qualify for welfare for particular needs (clothes for job interviews, tools or clothes etc needed to start a job you've been offered and the funds to apply for ID's are most definitely on that list)
- Health cards are free assuming you have continued to pay your taxes to date. You have to provide ID (like a birth certificate) and proof of address to get a health card. A letter from a local homeless shelter, church or government agency is considered proof of address if the homeless doesn't have utility, lease or mortgage papers to show proof of address. If you've lost a health card the replacement fee is about $10, and they can look up your picture on their file to use as your ID if you don't have any.
- It makes sense to file your taxes if you are homeless or very poor. It is not possible to owe taxes unless you make at least (variable) around $11,000 per year, more if you have children. You will get a small refund if you make no or very little money. By law, you can cash government cheques without a bank account for free at any Canadian bank.
- Health cards are photo ID's that are not considered government issued ID for most purposes (age restricted purchases etc) but are considered photo ID for voting purposes.
- If you don't have ID and aren't registered to vote a personal guarantee from someone who is registered to vote at that voters station means you can register to vote. Homeless shelter employees, priests and ministers who work with the poor, food bank employees etc can all provide this guarantee provided they know you have been living in the area for a minimal amount of time. (I think it's around 3 weeks but I don't remember for certain). They can and will guarantee for their clients to ensure those without ID or addresses are able to vote as is a guaranteed human right in Canada.

No system is perfect, but even when I was one of the homeless I never felt like the government or any member of it was trying to prevent my from voting, and in fact that people that work consistently with the poor and homeless are well versed in all of these requirements and will work very hard to make sure as many of their clients as possible do get out to vote. I did vote in one provincial election without any ID and in one federal election with only a birth certificate and a health card (no address on either).

[HYHYBT]

In addition to the problems already given when you said that before, IDs expire. Voter registration does not.