The Power of the ANTIFA Myth

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...y-us-civil-war

So I guess while the next Civil War starts tomorrow and no one's told the left yet, I thought I'd just drop this here before I go to my Parkinson's fundraiser Saturday where I guess I'll now have to look out for crackpot conservatives with automatics there "just in case."

I guess a few questions:
1) For Liberals - how do you deal with far left radicals in general (who much like crackpot conservatives) tend to just create a "what about " target
2) For Conservatives - How exactly is an ANTIFA insurrection supposed to happen while these are mostly dumbasses with batons vs. Republican leaning Cops, Republican leaning Military, and no actual support from liberals in general?

3) If we take the mythologizing for what it is, how can we stop it? We already know it's being exploited by foreign powers. How can you derail this sort of thing when there is such a financial incentive to feed this type of behavior for political reasons?

[s_stabeler]

The obvious problem is that it can be hard to tell if they're morons, or are themselves preparing to try something.

[mjr]

So I guess while the next Civil War starts tomorrow and no one's told the left yet, I thought I'd just drop this here before I go to my Parkinson's fundraiser Saturday where I guess I'll now have to look out for crackpot conservatives with automatics there "just in case."

Automatics? I thought that had already been discussed. What exactly is an "automatic"? Please tell me what a firearm is that's available to the general public that is "automatic".

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

Really?

That entire topic prompt and you want to discuss the off hand joke? No.

[mjr]

Really?

That entire topic prompt and you want to discuss the off hand joke? No.

#2:

Because in Berkeley, police "stood down" while Antifa basically rioted.

Does "punch a nazi" ring a bell?

[Gravekeeper]

#2:

Because in Berkeley, police "stood down" while Antifa basically rioted.

Does "punch a nazi" ring a bell?

The Berkeley riot was barely a blip in the history of riots in the US.

You're trying to say that could translate to an insurrection?

All you're doing is drawing an underline under Yeti's original point.

[mjr]

The Berkeley riot was barely a blip in the history of riots in the US.

You're trying to say that could translate to an insurrection?

All you're doing is drawing an underline under Yeti's original point.

Not exactly, no. I'm saying that ANTIFA is using the exact same tactics they say they're fighting against. You can SAY they aren't, but they are.

And as I've said on other forums, "Something isn't true just because you say it is."

It's the same in politics. Something's not true just because a Democrat/Republican says it is.

[Gravekeeper]

Not exactly, no. I'm saying that ANTIFA is using the exact same tactics they say they're fighting against. You can SAY they aren't, but they are.

And as I've said on other forums, "Something isn't true just because you say it is."

It's the same in politics. Something's not true just because a Democrat/Republican says it is.

I did not say anything on that one way or the other. No one did.

That's two threads now where instead of answering for the ridiculous point you tried to make you entirely changed the topic. Hell, you're changing the entire argument to one that wasn't even happening in the first place.

If you cannot discuss something with enough good faith to keep yourself honest between two posts then all you're adding is noise. Noise isn't going to convince anyone of your position. It's just going to make people think you're being disingenuous with them and stop talking to you.

There are legitimate criticisms to be leveled at Antifa. But going along with the Republican noise machine and making them out to be the latest boogeyman / scapegoat everyone needs to be afraid of doesn't help. It undercuts the entire conversation and pushes away people who might have agreed with you otherwise had you leveled a legitimate criticism.

For reference, saying Antifa is as dangerous as colonial America or that it's in any way remotely reasonable to believe they're going to mount an insurrection isn't a legitimate criticism. It's disingenuous fear mongering. If you want to discuss Antifa, or indeed any similar issue in the current political climate, you need to rise above such tactics.

Otherwise its all just more noise and the current state of bullshit will continue unabated with everyone flinging shit at each other.

[Canarr]

Antifa is dangerous, in that they disrupt legitimate protests, use violence and intimidation, attack people and property, and in general do an actual disservice to the causes they claim to champion most of the time. Whereever they show up and break the law, they should be arrested.

However, Antifa is *not* dangerous in the sense of an armed group of insurrectionists poised to start a civil war. They lack the organistion, the armament, and the numbers to do that.

[Gravekeeper]

Antifa is dangerous, in that they disrupt legitimate protests, use violence and intimidation, attack people and property, and in general do an actual disservice to the causes they claim to champion most of the time. Whereever they show up and break the law, they should be arrested.

However, Antifa is *not* dangerous in the sense of an armed group of insurrectionists poised to start a civil war. They lack the organistion, the armament, and the numbers to do that.

I'm going to debate the "legitimate protest" part because a lot of Berkeley was two groups of assholes scheduling a time and place to meet up so they could beat each other with sticks. Antifa didn't completely sour until it was fully co-opted by black bloc types. That's when there was an actual co-ordinated assault during a protest.

But prior to that it was a lot of assholes agreeing to meet in the parking lot so to speak. And before that, there was some pretty grievous attacks on counter protesters at Trump rallies. Before Antifa really began to crystallize. At the time I was lodged in a number of social media discussions about it and Trump supporters were cheering it on when several of them beat the shit out of one "Antifa". While the cops shrugged and watched from 50 feet away.

And the justifications they gave were endless. That 6'4 jock *had* to cold cock punch that 5'2 girl square in the face because she tried to grab the sign out of someone's hand ( someone who was shoving her with that sign ). The Nazi who ran his car into a group of protesters, killing one, *had* to do it because it was self defense and Antifa were going to surround his car and kill him ( despite there being no one anywhere around his car and him having a good 2 blocks run up to hit the crowd ).

So honestly I find the whole Myth of Antifa being the bogeyman now to be pretty ridiculous given how willing people were to pummel the shit out opposing protesters. Then defend any and all actions of their "side" to the last breath. Nevermind all the proud videos on Youtube of them bragging about pummeling the shit out of Antifa.

People seem to forget that stuff like this went down back around the time of Berkeley. When a mob of Trumpers ran down a handful of "Antifa". And yes, the guy that bodychecks the girl in the video is the same one who cold cocks her in the face when she turns around to slap him for hitting her from behind.

The entire sequence of events at that rally began when a flag waving Trump supporter convinced another Trumper to attack a journalist from behind while he was filming the rally organizer talking it out with a couple of the counter protesters. When that happened, someone stepped in to try and break it up and the guy that attacked the journalist started wailing on him. The rally organizer tried to break it up. Then some meathead Trump supporter saw his chance and jumped on the Antifa guy she was talking too and start wailing on him.

The Antifa guy peppersprayed him. That broke it all up and everyone backed off. But some of the meatheads that started the fight ( and were looking for one ) followed the handful of counter-protesters as they tried to leave. While the cops, 50 feet away or so, just watched it all unfold.

The meathead that attacked the counter protester the moment he saw an opening to punch him is the same one that's beating the guy on the ground at the end of the video.

The one constant between all of the videos of violence from that day was actually the shithead Trumper with the flag. He was using it spear people and was going from place to place trying to incite people to attack the counter protesters. He basically started it all. Then after it started, he ran around yelling at the crowd to chase down individual protesters to wail on. All while stabbing at them with a flag pole.

So yeah, after watching all this shit unfold from day one in one protest after another I call bullshit when Antifa gets turned into this insurrectionist bogeyman. Antifa didn't get really ugly till months later when the black bloc organized a jump on a protest. And Trumpers have been giving as much as they were getting the entire way through. At least till took it up a notch and started yelling "Hey nigger!" and opening fire at rallies and running people over with cars.

Especially after so much social media cheering about how they were whipping counter-protester ass and fuckpops like Based Stickman running around. Who for the record organized his own little posse and started showing up at these things in a gang.

So yeah, the myth is bullshit and no one was certainly afraid of them a couple months ago when they were punching women in the face, beating people with sticks, shooting at black people and running people over with cars.

[Canarr]

Well, the lines between "Black Bloc" and "Antifa" have been very blurry even at the best of times, which makes it fairly difficult to sort them into the good and the bad guys in masks and black.

And yes, there certainly were a lot of instances where people on the right went to protests and rallys with the same equipment and intent to cause havoc; no argument there. If Antifa/Black Bloc have any upside, it's that they mostly attack people of the opposite camp, and leave innocent bystanders alone. Unfortunately, their interpretation of who, exactly, is part of the "Evil Nazi Scum" tends to be very... generous.

In Germany, most of the time they'll be mixing it up with Neo-Nazis and similar rightwingers, who generally have no problems to be dissing out their own load of street violence. However, there have been plenty of opportunities where they gleefully destroyed private shops, bars or stores, not to mention set fire to cars. Just check out some of the videos posted from Hamburg's G20 summit this year.

Personally, I don't see any moral superiority with Antifa compared to whatever flavor of rightwingers they fight locally (Neo-Nazis/alt-right). Both hold extremist views, both believe their position justifies violence towards the opposition, both use intimidation and violence to bring the more centrist majority in line with their demands. They all suck.

[mjr]

But going along with the Republican noise machine and making them out to be the latest boogeyman / scapegoat everyone needs to be afraid of doesn't help. It undercuts the entire conversation and pushes away people who might have agreed with you otherwise had you leveled a legitimate criticism.

Oh, please. You guys do this constantly. Heck, look at any "gun control" thread you guys start. You're being sold a bill of goods on the whole "assault rifle", "automatic weapon", and "background check" thing.

Wayne LaPierre himself (the head of that super scary organization called the NRA) actually said it's not a background check problem. It's a system problem.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLTMkg1RLW0

For reference, saying Antifa is as dangerous as colonial America or that it's in any way remotely reasonable to believe they're going to mount an insurrection isn't a legitimate criticism.

For the record, I'm not the one that equated Antifa with colonial America. That was someone else. Most of Antifa is probably anti-gun anyway (makes their job easier). I'm not too worried at this point about Antifa mounting an insurrection. It's not about that. it's about proverbially bringing a gun to a knife fight, as the expression goes.

It's disingenuous fear mongering. If you want to discuss Antifa, or indeed any similar issue in the current political climate, you need to rise above such tactics.

Otherwise its all just more noise and the current state of bullshit will continue unabated with everyone flinging shit at each other.

I'd ask you to do the same. I've seen numerous times where you've used similar tactics when attacking a group.

[Canarr]

I'd ask you to do the same. I've seen numerous times where you've used similar tactics when attacking a group.

It doesn't really matter what someone else does; everybody should have their own standards they measure their behavior by. To basically say, "Sure, what I'm doing is shitty; but they're doing it, too!" isn't a particularly great argument.

[Gravekeeper]

Well, the lines between "Black Bloc" and "Antifa" have been very blurry even at the best of times, which makes it fairly difficult to sort them into the good and the bad guys in masks and black.

Black Bloc has co-opted a lot of it in more recent incidents. But roll back a ways and it was some morons with signs and Soviet t-shirts. It didn't have much if anything to do with Antifa as its understood in Europe. It was basically college kids thinking they were changing the world.

I'm not saying Antifa as it is now is morally superior, however. Just that they aren't the bogeyman they're being used as and those they tend to mix it up with are just as bad and just as willing to fight as they are. Plus a couple steps beyond in a few incidents thus far. Antifa hasn't shot at or killed anyone as of yet.

Oh, please. You guys do this constantly. Heck, look at any "gun control" thread you guys start. You're being sold a bill of goods on the whole "assault rifle", "automatic weapon", and "background check" thing.

I haven't been around in months and barely posted at all in a couple years now really. So spare me the "you guys".

And fuck LaPierre. He cited violent video games as a cause of Sandy Hook. The man is an asshole. He pushed back on universal background checks even when the majority of members of his own organization ( and the majority of Americans ) supported it.

For the record, I'm not the one that equated Antifa with colonial America. That was someone else. Most of Antifa is probably anti-gun anyway (makes their job easier). I'm not too worried at this point about Antifa mounting an insurrection. It's not about that. it's about proverbially bringing a gun to a knife fight, as the expression goes.

Someone else using your login? I specifically asked in that thread why Antifa had come up and you specifically pointed me to your own post. A post in which you specifically tied Antifa as an example to a point about the dangers of the American frontier. You're also the first one to even mention Antifa in the entire thread.

When I challenged that point by specifically asking you "You brought up Antifa in response to a point about the dangers of the frontier?" to which you responded it was "relevant". Then when I challenged that point you attempted to change the subject a couple of times before accusing me of making a semantic argument. A charge you still have not explained.

So where did I miss the record and if I did miss the record why did you try to defend the record you claim you didn't put forth? Let alone point me right to your own post in response to my original question?

I'd ask you to do the same. I've seen numerous times where you've used similar tactics when attacking a group.

I know I've been away for a while but do you have any method of debating that is not a whataboutism or an attempt to change the subject?

[Canarr]

I'm not saying Antifa as it is now is morally superior, however. Just that they aren't the bogeyman they're being used as and those they tend to mix it up with are just as bad and just as willing to fight as they are. Plus a couple steps beyond in a few incidents thus far. Antifa hasn't shot at or killed anyone as of yet.

Well, guess then we're in agreement. No, they're not the boogeyman; but no, they're not good guys, either.