Holocaust?? What holocaust???

[Slytovhand]

Given the recent shooting at a Holocaust Memorial, and the reasons the attacker did it, I thought I'd bring it up here (probably again...).

Not so much whether it did or did not take place (though, I spose, that's an appropriate Fratch to have as well... if the 'againsts' can take the heat ), but more that some things aren't 'allowed' to be said. Why is it so bad to say the Holocaust didn't happen, and you're labelled for it, but when it comes to other discussions (say, Evolution vs Creationism) it's ok to be on one side or the other (yeah, you still will get flamed for it, but that's in a different way).

As has been pointed out, when it comes to this subject, even some places in Europe made it illegal to say it didn't happen...

Why this - of all things - is so taboo?? (after all, 20 million Russians died on the Russian front...just as a comparison).

It seems ok now to bag the Aryan supremicist, but isn't there a sense of Jewish supremacy going on if someone isn't allowed to say "That didn't happen"?

And why is Aryan supremacy bad, but (say) American (English, Canadian, Aboriginal, <insert any other group>) supremacy isn't?


Let the Fratch begin

[AFPheonix]

I actually agree with you on the laws that outlaw you from denying it. I don't believe in the infringement of free speech, even when said free speech is absolutely moronic.

That being said, the people who usually are deniers are doing so because they are profoundly racist and are on the same level of stupidity with the people who say the moon landing was staged.

Interestingly enough, according to TIME the number of Arabs living in Israel who deny the holocaust has increased over the last few years.

[Flyndaran]

There are always limits on free speech.
I don't see too much problem with limiting hateful BS. Denying the nazi death tolls is pretty much as hateful as you can get.

I would like to imagine a time when obviously false creationism disappears. But as it does not technically spew hate, I probably wouldn't vote for its persecution.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Well, I certainly do not support making things illegal to say, even something this outrageous. In fact, I WANT to know who thinks this way, let them say it. That way it's easier to tell who and what they are, right up front.

So they can be made quickly into the pariahs they so richly deserve to become.

[Flyndaran]

You must support making some things illegal to say.
Fire in a crowded theater, inciting riots or other crimes, etc.
Isn't racist propaganda inherently violence provoking?

[guywithashovel]

When you look at it in regards to the evidence they have to support their claims, Halocaust deniers aren't any different than Creationists/ID Proponents. They both use false information, distorted facts, and quote mining to support their bogus claims. Though Halocaust deniers are doing what they do out of bigotry, while Creationists are simply doing what they do out of sheer disrespect for science.

However, it shouldn't be illegal to say that the Halocaust didn't happen or that the Theory of Evolution is wrong. Still, those types of opinions shouldn't be allowed in history books and science books (not unless the proponents can muster up some real, peer-reviewed evidence for their claims). Simply put, truth is not a democracy.

[lordlundar]

The reason why it's illegal to deny the holocaust is the same reason for the nuclear proliferation treaty. It DID happen, it was HORRIBLE, and it shouldn't happen again. The problem is that the white supremacists want to claim the statements from the survivors, the allied soldiers, and the photographs were faked so people would give them the benefit of the doubt, which would allow them to get away with their other hate speeches.

Basically, they want to try what Hitler did in 1938, but the laws in place do the equivalent of throwing up a signal flare saying "I'm a white supremacist! come get me!" And make it easier to shut them down.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I guess what I'm saying is that I am in favor for assholes being able to reveal themselves as such. Saying "X never happened" when clearly it did marks you as an idiot at best and a loathsome sack of racist manure at worst.

Yelling out things in a crowd to incite a riot or a dangerous situation is different. You're yelling something out with the intent to incite a riot. Merely stating your opinion, even when you are embarassingly wrong, is not the same thing.

[Rapscallion]

I saw one apparent 'holocaust denier' and his site. He didn't deny that it happened, but he claimed to have checked the historical records and didn't believe that it was on such a scale as claimed. He was still labelled as a denier and villified.

I've not checked the records, but it made a refreshing change to the usual acceptance of the standard history. I'm not saying he's right or wrong, but I am saying tha he was shouted down and ostracised.

Rapscallion

[Slytovhand]

I saw one apparent 'holocaust denier' and his site. He didn't deny that it happened, but he claimed to have checked the historical records and didn't believe that it was on such a scale as claimed. He was still labelled as a denier and villified.

I've not checked the records, but it made a refreshing change to the usual acceptance of the standard history. I'm not saying he's right or wrong, but I am saying tha he was shouted down and ostracised.

Rapscallion

And that, Raps, is basically the reason I started this thread...

He's been ostracised and vilified for pointing out the lack of historical data on a subject, and based on that lack of evidence, for putting forward differing hypothesis. (granted, there are the neo-nazis out there who want to hate everything except themselves), but then... there's this.

What if I, who is fairly academic, went researching and asked the question - "Who says there were 6million Jews killed? I can only find evidence of (say, for this example) 100,000. (not to mention, when it came down to the 'Jewish problem' (a term that had been used for decades before WWII), various other European countries had given them a bum steer for ages (including pogroms,too, I might add... but it's the Nazis who cop all the crap)."

This just seems such a hot topic, that any dissent is automatically attacked, and intellectual debate isn't allowed.

[Rapscallion]

It's been some time since I saw this piece. It may well be that he was also anti-semitic, but it may be that he was labelled as such because of his opposition to the accepted doctrine.

Too much fuzziness on it - been a long time since I saw this.

Raspcallion

[BroomJockey]

The reason the Nazis take all the crap is because while others shunned them, the Nazis were the ones who were actually rounding them up and killing them.

As for the records, it's well established that the Nazis were methodical about destroying records in the final days of the war. There's basically no way to prove how many people just went up in smoke (figuratively and literally) during the Holocaust.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Keegstra <-- For some reading of something that happened close to me. And this is why people shout down Holocaust deniers. Because 99% of them don't just say "Hey, you know, this might be just a bit over the top," they say things like "Dem dirty Jews be stagin' the whole t'ing!"

Personally, I think the proper view to take isn't "X number of people died," or "Y group was persecuted to the point of attempted genocide," though both are quite valid, but arguable points. To me, the view should be "a nation was roused to such bloodlust and hatred that it was deemed acceptable to place people in horrifying conditions, work them to death, and kill the ones who survived." And that is scary. Because internment camps were not an uncommon thing during the war. If things had been slightly different, Canada might have ended up just killing all the Japanese they'd rounded up. A little more hatred, fewer resources around, and it might have happened. For any country to do that is a stain on human history which may never be fully erased.

[AdminAssistant]

That was the good thing about the Soviets, they kept records of everything. For a long time, nobody knew exactly what happened to, say, Vsevelod Meyerhold. And now we do. He was a theatre director and playwright who was arrested, tortured, then executed. They even saved the journal he wrote in prison.