States' Rights vs. Federal Law

[Slytovhand]

I suppose the real question would come down to what was exemplified by the US Civil War, and the UK War of the Roses... what happens if one lot decides not to abide by those laws? Sort of makes the question moot - unless you've got some other sort of stranglehold. Sure, taxation is a variant... but who collects the taxes?? And then, what would happen if all of a state's tax-payers all suddenly stopped paying tax to a federal government in support of the state?

[ExiledV20]

When the laws of one portion of the Union became unbearable to the southern states, they (legally!) held votes, and decided to secede from the Union.

Ok, now here's where I have to disagree on certain points.
The convention held by South Carolina and affirmed by the other Confederate states was never determined to be actually legal. It was based in the beliefs of the Declaration of Independence, not the US Constitution.

As a matter of fact, after the conclusion of the Civil War, the subject came up in the court case of Texas vs White (1869), which concerned the sale of bonds by the Texan Confederate government. It was ruled at the time:

In deciding the merits of the bond issue, the court further held that the Constitution did not permit states to secede from the United States, and that the ordinances of secession, and all the acts of the legislatures within seceding states intended to give effect to such ordinances, were "absolutely null".

and that:

Texas (and hence the rest of the Confederacy) never left the Union during the Civil War. Further, a state cannot unilaterally secede from the United States. There is no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution

Thus, the only way for a state to LEGALLY secede from the USA is by revolution and the total destruction of the federal government. Isn't it nice of the SC Justices to make it so plain?

Abraham Lincoln turned around and told them he would not accept such an action, and forced them to stay in the Union, and accept the laws abolishing slavery..

This is also mostly incorrect. The causes of secession were NOT slavery; it was merely a side issue to the actual war. The causes of secession were a) what the South felt was undue taxation on the cotton industry, thus favoring the textile factories of the North, and b) the fragmentation of the American party system, especially as concerned the then-Democrats, and c) Southern fears of technological upgrades that invalidated the social structure of the Southern states.

Slavery was a moralistic issue and made for great flag-waving and recruitment strategy, but it unfortunately was not at the core of the conflict.

The current problem of states not wanting to accept federal law IS a growing issue. If Texas made good on its threats, then the federal government would be required to respond with force. If any state governor can just ignore Washington, then we have a 50 republic anarchy going on. Next thing, Texas is invading Louisiana to gain access to the shipping ports of NOLA....

[Boozy]

Slavery was a moralistic issue and made for great flag-waving and recruitment strategy, but it unfortunately was not at the core of the conflict.

Abolishing slavery is to the Civil War what "Freeing the Iraqis from Saddam" is to the Iraq war. An excellent outcome, but essentially a side effect.

[AdminAssistant]

Abolishing slavery is to the Civil War what "Freeing the Iraqis from Saddam" is to the Iraq war. An excellent outcome, but essentially a side effect.

But it was very handy for the Union to use it to make the Confederacy look like the very definition of evil. That allowed them to justify Sherman's "total war" and the absolute horror that was the Reconstruction. I actually heard a Civil War historian say that Sherman's March on Georgia was "merciful" because it shortened the war. I'm sure the innocent people he killed, those whose homes and livelihoods were destroyed, those that starved to death in the aftermath thanked him for his "mercy".

And people wonder why Southerners were and still are so distrusting of "Yankees".

[IDrinkaRum]

Also, one of the reasons the North even mentioned the abolishment of slavery (and the Emancipation Proclomation) is because England was going to help out the South during the War. If the English had helped the South, it is a real possibility that the outcome of the American Civil War would have favored the South instead of the North. When President Lincoln abolished slavery in those states that 1) either didn't have slavery (i.e., a few northern states) and 2) the states that were in conflict with the Federal Government, and since the South wouldn't do whatever President Lincoln wanted them to do, the English withdrew their support for the South and didn't help them any longer. (England abolished slavery in the very early 1800's).

[Greenday]

And people wonder why Southerners were and still are so distrusting of "Yankees".

They are? I was unaware of this.

[BroomJockey]

And people wonder why Southerners were and still are so distrusting of "Yankees".

Grudge-holding. You're doing it right.

[AdminAssistant]

They are? I was unaware of this.

Many are. I briefly dated someone from Philadelphia and my parents were...well, they weren't pleased, let's put it that way. But yes, I think there is still some distrust of outsiders in certain areas of the South.

BJ, The entire infrastructure of the former Confederacy is still screwed up thanks to what went on during the Reconstruction. We still have shoddy roads, shoddy education systems, high levels of unemployment, and lower education levels. The political corruption then is still seen in state and local offices. As much as I didn't like his politics, Mike Huckabee was probably the first truly honest man to ever serve as Governer of Arkansas. Then when the civil rights crusade started, and activists from the north began to move in...A lot of people saw that alllllll over again. (Not saying I agree, but that's how it was.) A lot of people were unhappy, some reacted with violence, and some were just damned stubborn (Gov. Faubus).

[BroomJockey]

Mike Huckabee was probably the first truly honest man to ever serve as Governer of Arkansas.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/judicia...liticians-2007

6. Governor Mike Huckabee (R-AR): Governor Huckabee enjoyed a meteoric rise in the polls in December 2007, which prompted a more thorough review of his ethics record. According to The Associated Press: “[Huckabee’s] career has also been colored by 14 ethics complaints and a volley of questions about his integrity, ranging from his management of campaign cash to his use of a nonprofit organization to subsidize his income to his destruction of state computer files on his way out of the governor’s office.” And what was Governor Huckabee’s response to these ethics allegations? Rather than cooperating with investigators, Huckabee sued the state ethics commission twice and attempted to shut the ethics process down.

Then I grieve for Arkansas.

[daleduke17]

Rod Blagojevich, George Ryan, Gray Davis, Elliot Spitzer and Daniel Walker are a few who have Huckabee beat.

[joe hx]

the only slaves that were "freed" by Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation were those slaves in states that had seceded. any state that did not seceded could keep their slaves

obviously since the states that seceded did not recognize Lincoln's or the federal government's authority not a single slave was freed by the Emancipation Proclamation

the 13th amendment, which abolished slavery, was not adopted until 8 months after Lincoln's assassination

and, yes, the south still very much is angry at the north. it's cooled off a lot in the last 150 or so years. but from what I understand, the south doesn't always call it the "Civil War" - sometimes they call it "The War of Northern Aggression"

[AdminAssistant]

Then I grieve for Arkansas.

Hm, wasn't familiar with all that....can't say I'm terribly surprised. But compared to some of his predecessors...that's not too bad. However, the guy sitting in the chair now, Mike Beebe...I'm a fan. Seems like a good guy, and some decent things are getting done in the state.