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  • #76
    I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) that NightAngel's point about noone needing "assault rifles" (*) is a counter to the often-stated argument 'but I need it!'

    The type of gun I think of when I think of the term 'assault rifle' is one which has an extremely rapid rate of fire, and frequently uses fast and/or powerful bullets.

    (*) imprecise, I know.

    Such guns aren't needed for hunting, and using them for self-defence would include a high risk of collateral damage. Especially in the hands of someone who doesn't treat guns with the respect and professionalism they require.

    The only reasons I can think of for Joe or Jane Average to need or want an assault rifle are:
    (a) admiring gorgeous engineering. Okay, I can buy that one. I've been known to study a bridge or a train engine, I can see people wanting to study guns.
    (b) admiring the craftsmanship. See a.
    (c) anticipating social collapse. I can buy that one, too.
    (d) you anticipate multiple well-armed and potentially armoured criminals attacking you/your family/your property, and you either don't care about collateral damage or are thoroughly trained in the use of such weapons.
    (e) you seek status among your peers, and ownership of such a weapon is a status symbol in your environment.
    (f) the silicon chip inside your head is tuned to overload, and you wanna shoot (oo -oo-oooot) the whole day down.(*)

    (*) Taken from 'I don't like Mondays' by the Boomtown Rats

    Now, people like me, and others on 'this side' of the gun debate, see d as unlikely to occur to the vast majority of people. Most people on 'this side' of the gun debate see c as unlikely to occur - me, I'm more dubious about that.
    I see e as insufficient reason to own such a weapon - because I've known a lot of status-seeking people, and they tend not to hold their symbols in enough respect to handle a dangerous symbol like this safely.

    To me, an accident by an e-reason person or their friends, or an f event, are much, much more likely (in my part of the world) than either social collapse or a home invasion by a large and well-armed band of thieves. Thus, social risk management argues that society is probably better served by keeping such guns under control than otherwise.

    However, because I recognise that I'm not as well-informed about Joe or Jane Average's individual situation as they are, I'm willing to accept that Joe or Jane Average can have whatever gun they wish, provided they have proof of training and responsible handling of the gun.

    And before you say 'but people can have cars they don't need' - people have to show proof of training in the use of such cars. I wish they had to show proof of more training, and of responsible handling. In my ideal world, we'd have excellent public transport and more stringent licensing for driving. But we do have licensing before you can drive.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Greenday View Post
      Come on, you may not agree with arguments for guns, but you can't blame gun owners for the president being elected for two terms. First of all, the popular vote means nothing. Second of all, a lot of non-gun owners voted for Bush too.
      The NRA played a big part. They pushed a lot of people to vote for him based on the "the other guy will take your guns away" approach. As close as both contests were, it's not crazy to suggest they tipped the balance. I saw firsthand examples of this since I live in a so called swing state and was deluged by all sorts of propaganda.

      Can you not see gun usage as a sport at all? Aiming contests, speed shooting at targets. I mean, some people don't see golf as a sport, or fishing. Hell, fishing is a great example. Fishing contests hurt animals. Shooting contests hurt...paper?
      The guns used for target shooting are usually very different than the ones used for defense. Also, just because it can be used as sport doesn't really take away from the fact that guns are pretty much designed to do damage.

      And yes, a lot of gun usage does result in hurting other people, but there can be importance in the use of a gun in self-defense. If an unarmed thief enters someone's home, and is confronted with the sight of the receiving end of a gun, I HIGHLY doubt the thief will continue to rob the house. The gun doesn't even have to be loaded. The thief would never know.
      Like I said, there are many valid uses/reasons/needs for guns. The belief that owning a gun, any gun, is the most important right a person has is very disturbing to me.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by CancelMyService View Post
        \Like I said, there are many valid uses/reasons/needs for guns. The belief that owning a gun, any gun, is the most important right a person has is very disturbing to me.
        Ok, I'm glad we found something we can totally agree on. When it comes to human rights, I wouldn't put the right to bear arms as high as freedom of speech, freedom of religion or no illegal search and siezure.
        Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else. The contrary opinion that violence doesn't solve anything is merely wishful thinking at its worst. - Starship Troopers

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        • #79
          Originally posted by rahmota View Post
          As for flaunting them I'm not sure what you mean by flaunting them. I have no problem with displaying a firearm in a rack or cabinet with proper security measures.
          Flaunting would be like this:

          "No, I can't do that for you sir."

          "I have a concealed weapons permit (shows permit)... my gun is on me. Does that change your mind?"

          "No, but it earns you a one-fucking-way ticket out the door. You can take that trip with or without the police- your choice."

          Some of them even go as far as flashing the gun- they're a bit more rare though.
          (One guy even told me to, "... wait here while I go get my gun out of my car..."He walked out- I locked the door and called the police. He was gone at the speed of light once he realized I'd dialed 911. Yes- it's a special kind of stupid.)

          Then they usually try and argue that they've done nothing wrong and they have a license so the police can't DO anything.

          Actually, yes dumbass they can- you've just threatened me with a deadly weapon. They can take you to jail.

          See, it's people like this that make it hard on the gun owners. I imagine that I'd probably never be/feel threatened by Rahotma or the presence of his guns.
          Flaunting and displaying are two completely different things. You can display a gun for everyone to see and it be fine. No one has to even see a flaunted gun for it to be a problem.

          Make sense?

          And Rahotma, no need to apologize for these bottom dwellers. I know the difference between normal people and scumbags- they're not your fault or the fault of other responsible gun owners.
          Sadly- they are the ones that make the biggest impression though.
          They are the ones that gun owners should be combating because they are the REASON people hate guns and want them banned.
          "Yes, well, I've always found your ignorance quite amusing."
          Lara Croft- Tomb Raider

          Comment


          • #80
            Ok I'm not real sure where to start so we'll take it from the top with cancel/greenday's comments.

            Cancel:The NRA played a big part. They pushed a lot of people to vote for him based on the "the other guy will take your guns away" approach. As close as both contests were, it's not crazy to suggest they tipped the balance. I saw firsthand examples of this since I live in a so called swing state and was deluged by all sorts of propaganda.
            Okay as a Life NRA member in the swong state of Ohio I can personally say I did not see, hear or encounter one bit of NRA authorized, approved or placed material in regards to this. As a matter of fact I voted against King Dubya both times and many other members of the local gun club where also Kerry supporters. We also had W supporters. I would not say that there was a national movement by teh NRA to support W. And also much of W's unconstitutional activities are not endorsed by the NRA. We do not just blindly endorse a president or candidate in that manner. At least at the local level I am active within.

            Cancel:As close as both contests were, it's not crazy to suggest they tipped the balance
            And its not crazy to say it was the religious extremists harping on and feeding the fears of the people that Kerry would destroy family values and let homosexuals have basic human rights (which religous extremists are not happy to do) and all the other sins and evils of the world resided in the democrats while their posterboy saint george would save us all.

            Its also not improbable to say that there may have been some fishy deals going down with the voting machines and all either.....

            Cancel:Like I said, there are many valid uses/reasons/needs for guns. The belief that owning a gun, any gun, is the most important right a person has is very disturbing to me.

            Greenday:I wouldn't put the right to bear arms as high as freedom of speech, freedom of religion or no illegal search and siezure
            Okay you do realize without the right to keep and bear arms if the other rights are not respected you have no recourse to defend yourself and your home and those rights? That the entire 10 amendments are only in that numerical order for bookkeeping purposes and the founding fathers saw all ten as being equally important and needed for the citizenry and this country? Its a really dangerous attitude to say that this right is worth more or more valuable than the other one. Almost like saying pick a finger to loose or something.

            Cancel:You can also say a mountain of cocaine sitting on a table isn't going to hurt anyone either unless someone snorts it. I don't think anyone would make the argument there shouldn't be any restrictions on cocaine just because of the way some people use it.
            Okay since this was dragged into the discussion I'll say this. I believe that many of the drug laws in this country shold be removed and many drugs legalized, taxed to hell and back and tightly controlled but legal. If a person wants to pollute their body and brain and harm themselves then so be it. Only if they directly harm another should they be restrained or stopped from doing so. One place for firearm ownership to come in handy for self-defense. As for cocaine specifically Legalize and control it and you will see a reduction in criminal activity as people no longer have an incentive. As gangs and other organizations who make a living out of this no longer are able to profit from being sole source providers.

            Cancel:but I just don't see how someone can be SO fervent about firearms. I think it's a mindset that I just don't understand.
            And I cannot see why someone would be so anti constitutional or lacking in common sense to be so anti-firearms. Why someone would actually support the nanny state. Thats a mindset I cannot understand. To quote River People like to meddle. Thats the only reason i can figure why people want to take away people's firearms or ability to live their life the way they choose to do so. As long as a person doesnt harm another then do what they will and dont stand in their way.

            And its not just firearms but the rights and protections and history and tradition and everything that is american and means to be american that firearms represent and is all tied up within that I am passionate and fervent about.


            Cancel:The guns used for target shooting are usually very different than the ones used for defense.
            Actually not all of them are. I've been in turkey shoots with the same shotgun I have hanging up in the bedroom. I have been in target shoot competitions with my 9mm sidearm I keep for self defense. my wife has used her 9mm sidearm (we have a matched set) in target shoots before.

            Cancel:Also, just because it can be used as sport doesn't really take away from the fact that guns are pretty much designed to do damage
            Okay just to be a smartarse: Javelins are used in sport and they grew from the hunting spears the romans and all used. All designed to do damage. Bows and arrows can all be used in the same way as firearms. Steak knives are only designed to do damage. Should we take all of them away? ban anything that is dangerous or could hurt someone and live in nerfworld with the nanny state telling us what we can do, how we can act, what we can think, or what we can feel? Ohhh no that might harm you or someone we need to ban that. Noooo noo o little child you cannot play with that as you might hurt yourself or another person.

            I personally would rather die than live in a country or society that treated its people like mindless children. And sad to say thats the way this country is going if people dont grow some and stand up for the constitution and personal responsibility. Its your life take a stand for it. I dont care if you dont like firearms or see a need for firearms. I do. Others like me do. You stay in your corner and dont tell us we cant have firearms and we'll stay over here and be happy to blast away at our targets and have our firearms and be all politically incorrect.

            Nightangel: yeah that would be innappropriate (not to mention illegal) flaunting and threatening behavior there. Somethign that any responsible and intelligent firearms/CCW owner would never do (or at least should never do). Although I have to say there are probably quite a few of the responsible CCW individuals pass through your store that you never know about as they dont behave so idiotically.

            The CCW liscence actually requires people to act in a more responsible manner as improper use/carry of a firearm is a punishable offense in and of itself much less any other criminal activity in and of itself invovlign the firearm. It says so right in the paperwork when you go get one. That to accept that liscence means you agree to behave according to a higher set of standards than the average joe schmo on the street.

            And yeah I can see the difference between flaunting and displaying. I've carried openly before an never felt the need to mention or acknowledge my firearm and when I get my CCW I'll definately not be flashign it aroud like that. (Open carry during legal hunting season in a hip holster in full view of all persons. Walked past a county sheriff's deputy and he never said a word. Another rural vs urban difference)

            I imagine that I'd probably never be/feel threatened by Rahotma or the presence of his guns.
            Thank you. I can assure you that barring you becoming a threat (somethign I'm not expecting or preparing for) there would be no threat to you. And that is the biggest thing responsible firearms owners can understand and do. Be smart, Dont go looking for or creating threats and issues, Be an example and a good one at that. Unfortunately like I said before too many people are too lazy to think that hard.

            They are the ones that gun owners should be combating because they are the REASON people hate guns and want them banned.
            Well as an individual I'm doing the best I can. As a member of the NRA and NAHC I'm trying to do what I can and as a political activist and active member of my community I am doing what I can. Sorry I cant do more.

            And now if not the best then certianly the last for this post.
            Seshat:
            The type of gun I think of when I think of the term 'assault rifle' is one which has an extremely rapid rate of fire, and frequently uses fast and/or powerful bullets.
            See part of the problem here is that you have described about 90% of the firearms in existence in the modern world. Including many that law enforcement have.

            and using them for self-defence would include a high risk of collateral damage. Especially in the hands of someone who doesn't treat guns with the respect and professionalism they require.
            Which is why the need for better training and information for what weapon is most appropriate for the task at hand.

            Now dont tell greenday or cancel but I'll agree that using an "assualt rifle" or milspec SMG for home defense, especially in urban areas, could be a bit problematic. Heck in some of the apartment buildings I've visited a properly thrown dart could penetrate the walls. Thats where the training in weapon choice would come in.

            For home defense in those situations I'd probably go with a pump shotgun with as short a barrell as legally available. loaded with birdshot, buckshot and then slug in that order so that you have escalating responses available. Also bird shot doesnt have great penetration qualities so a couple sheets of drywall unless you have the barrell up against them would be able to reduce the threat to collateral damage. Generally though I have found that merely workign the action to load a round is quite effective at getting people's attention.

            Now as for the reasons to have one I'll agree with A, B and C definately. D in some countries around the world I could definately buy into. In America or another supposedly civilized country I will admit its not as likely but still within the realm of possible. A non-zero degree of probability which still doesnt mean they should be banned though for that reason however small the degree is. F I"ve got no clue what you are talking about at all.

            As for E. I'm not overly fond of those kinds of people either. Having somethign just for the "status" it brings you is shallow, irresponsible and pointless IMO> Unfortunately banning something just because it can be used as a status symbol is also not a valid reason to ban it. And like I said before there are already laws about behavior.

            I would also like to add:
            (G): Collectable value. Some "assault rifles" that have been banned are from WWII or older and as such fall within antique status. Also some people may wish to collect all examples of a particular company or military organizational weapon systems. Why couldnt they be happy with disabled nonfunctional replicas? Well speakign for myself (the only person i can really speak for) I wouldnt want one because it would not be (1) as valuable, (2) the real thing (3) useful in an emergency except as a club.
            (H): Entertainment or recreational value: Yeah I know this may not be everyone's cup of tea and it may make me sound a bit further off the edge of the radar but there is somethign about ripping off a high cap magazine into a target that just gives a rush, an endorphen high like winning the jackpot or something. I mean I know a guy who has a Class 3 liscence (this is the one that lets you have full auto hardware) and has a sweet mint Thompson SMG (The tommy gun in all the old gangster movies from the 30s.) that he let me fire one day at the range (in full compliance with all range safety directives) and I quite enjoyed it. Now I will admit that if the target had been anything other than a chunk of plastic and wood backed by dirt or firing back at me I might feel a bit different but as long as no harm is done then whats the big deal?

            But yeah I'll agree that training and knowledge are the most powerful parts of personal responsibility and that humanity needs more of that (in all sectors of society) but having a firearms liscence is not somethign I'm overly fond of for the various reasons I've already gone into.

            Comment


            • #81
              Translation from the obscure: reason F is specifically to go and kill a bunch of people or destroy property.

              I agree that people wanting something just for status isn't sufficient reason to ban it - I do think that in the case of guns (or other things with a high potential for hurting people), people should demonstrate an ability/willingness to handle it safely.

              I'll admit I forgot about recreational value.

              I guess I thought of collectible as coming under admiring/respecting the engineering and/or craftsmanship. I'm not a collector-type personality, and only really see 'worth' in a collection from the point of view of studying the evolution of the engineering/craftsmanship. I accept that other people have some weird-to-me desire to collect, though.

              Anyway: Nightangel covered the main reason people want what you think of as a 'nanny state' governing the ownership of firearms. The fact that there ARE idiots out there who misuse guns.

              I'm against 'nanny state' stuff where misuse affects the misuser. I'm strongly for a controlled level of 'nanny state' where misuse affects primarily other people, and partly for a controlled level of 'nanny state' where misuse affects other people as a secondary thing.

              With guns, misuse (appears to) primarily affect people other than the misuser.

              Comment


              • #82
                Ahh I see now. F is not a good option I'll agree. At least most of the time.

                One of the reasons I so dislike the nanny state is that it tries to take away all risk and make people live in a quiet sheeplike nerfworld. Well you cant live without taking some risks. The nanny state takes away personal drive, initiative and the ability to make your own decisions about your life. Whether those decisions are good or bad or downright stupid.

                I'll agree that there needs to be reasonable controls in place for those people who refuse to or otherwise are not able to accept personal responsibility. The thing is that those controls need to accept the individual freedoms and not be as constrictive as long as the individual does not do something to affect others. Affect themselves all they want thats their life and they want to screw it up oh well too damn bad but thats their right as a sentient being.

                And yeah there are all sorts of reasons people like to collect things from it looks nice to its a fine piece of workmanship.

                Comment


                • #83
                  I think that's another cultural difference. In general, our government (Aussieland) prefers only to regulate things where misbehaviour harms others. There are exceptions, but in general our government has historically provided and otherwise left people to their own devices.

                  We do have gambling and smoking help lines, and the government is providing warnings, and charging a 'sin tax' which is (at least nominally) to cover the cost of these support services. But we don't stop people from doing it.

                  If someone wants to drive off into the desert without sufficient fuel and water, that's their own lookout. There's clear warning, after all. They might get picked up by the highway patrol before they dehydrate. Usually they do, the cops don't like to have to deal with the alternative.
                  (The cops also have a system where if you're going bush or into the outback, you can file a 'travel intentions' form. If you don't show up, they'll go find you.)

                  Censorship tends to depend on which government is in power at the time - for the most part, however, it's just a matter of providing clear warnings again.

                  There're just so many dangers in Aussieland, once you get outside the major cities, that a nanny state is impractical.

                  (Don't let this put anyone off visiting, however. Just make sure that if you're not in the urban areas, you drop in at a tourist bureau or a police station and get the local warnings.)

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Okay you do realize without the right to keep and bear arms if the other rights are not respected you have no recourse to defend yourself and your home and those rights?
                    I've managed to live my whole life without firearms and so far I've been able to defend myself. Well ok, no one's ever broke into my house but I have defended my person on several occasions without having to use a firearm. As I said before, I don't really have a problem with everyone having the ability to purchase a gun, I just don't agree with the idea that everyone NEEDS one.

                    That the entire 10 amendments are only in that numerical order for bookkeeping purposes and the founding fathers saw all ten as being equally important and needed for the citizenry and this country? Its a really dangerous attitude to say that this right is worth more or more valuable than the other one. Almost like saying pick a finger to loose or something.
                    Heh that's pretty much the point I was trying to make.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by rahmota View Post
                      And many people dont NEED a huge military basd SUV should we prohibit everyone from having one because they don't need it?
                      Do you realise that the thought of this forced three drops of pee out?

                      Sorry - just had to say that.

                      Rapscallion
                      Proud to be a W.A.N.K.E.R. - Womanless And No Kids - Exciting Rubbing!
                      Reclaiming words is fun!

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                      • #86
                        Sounds like SOMEONE hasn't been doing their kegels....

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          seshat:
                          only to regulate things where misbehaviour harms others
                          And I'd like to see that too. Somehow I think we've managed to go down the path where we're agreeing just using different words again.

                          Cancel: Ok I think I managed to mistake/misinterpret something you said earlier as I've been told to my face that we dont need the second amendment, it soutdated, its useless, etc... before. If thats your feelings on it then I'll agree with you on that.

                          Raps:
                          Do you realise that the thought of this forced three drops of pee out?
                          Two thigns 1: What surprised a redneck would actually say something like this? I dont like the big SUVS they handle like crud off road and they are hard to take down narrow trails as they are just too dang wide. I want a nice old Jeep CJ7 or old jeep like they had on M*A*S*H now those where jeeps!

                          and 2: You know they have a test for that now. All it takes is one minute, a rubber glove and enough alcphol to drive the memory out of your skull....

                          And finally. I'm not sure what else is going to be said. This horse has been beat down so much we cant even make glue out of it. So unless anything new and major comes up I'm willing to say that this thread has settled into the usual suspects as frenchie would say and move on. I'm not changing my feelings on it and I doubt I'll be changing anyone else's, though this has been an interesting go around and I thank all of you and hope I didnt come off as too big a redneck lunatic..
                          Last edited by rahmota; 10-17-2007, 03:33 AM.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by rahmota View Post
                            And finally. I'm not sure what else is going to be said. This horse has been beat down so much we cant even make glue out of it. So unless anything new and major comes up I'm willing to say that this thread has settled into the usual suspects as frenchie would say and move on. I'm not changing my feelings on it and I doubt I'll be changing anyone else's, though this has been an interesting go around and I thank all of you and hope I didnt come off as too big a redneck lunatic..
                            Which brings us to our next topic of debate: why SUVs should be done away with for the most part...
                            Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else. The contrary opinion that violence doesn't solve anything is merely wishful thinking at its worst. - Starship Troopers

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by rahmota View Post
                              seshat:

                              And I'd like to see that too. Somehow I think we've managed to go down the path where we're agreeing just using different words again.
                              I've found that to be surprisingly common. I had a talk about gay marriage with a person who was utterly horrified at the mere thought, that ended up with us agreeing in principle on everything and just needing to redefine terminologies.

                              What surprised a redneck would actually say something like this? I dont like the big SUVS they handle like crud off road and they are hard to take down narrow trails as they are just too dang wide. I want a nice old Jeep CJ7 or old jeep like they had on M*A*S*H now those where jeeps!
                              I hear you!

                              I'm not changing my feelings on it and I doubt I'll be changing anyone else's, though this has been an interesting go around and I thank all of you and hope I didnt come off as too big a redneck lunatic..
                              Country boy, yes. Different culture and attitudes from me, yes. Lunatic, no. Our circumstances differ enough that I'd be surprised if we had identical attitudes, and I respect your ability to recognise that, and am pleased that you seem to respect my different-circumstances.

                              I also understand the gun debate now, and hadn't previously. For that I'm grateful.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Working vehicles, fine with those. They are genuinely needed. For use in the city? Not needed. I feel pretty much the same about guns.

                                Rapscallion
                                Proud to be a W.A.N.K.E.R. - Womanless And No Kids - Exciting Rubbing!
                                Reclaiming words is fun!

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