Flying the American flag upside down?

[BroomJockey]

It's about common respect for neighbor's, and community.

The guy's an ass, but he's not responsible for what other people are offended by. He's probably never going to get a solution he likes since he can't focus on tenable solutions, but I still think that the people are all terribly thin-skinned to interpret upside-down flag as an attack on the troops. Dear lord, what if he'd BURNED a flag. He'd probably have been shot, the way they're all reacting.

[Mr Slugger]

The guy's an ass, but he's not responsible for what other people are offended by. He's probably never going to get a solution he likes since he can't focus on tenable solutions, but I still think that the people are all terribly thin-skinned to interpret upside-down flag as an attack on the troops. Dear lord, what if he'd BURNED a flag. He'd probably have been shot, the way they're all reacting.

Totally agree. I will not deny that these people are thin skinned. And in all honesty if this was this guy's home and he was flying it this way then I actually would totally stand up for that guy. But a business is different you need to work with your neighbor's not piss them all off.

[Flyndaran]

If you read the article there's also been 200 phone calls to the police about it, as well as the vets are against it. So it's not just her. If it was just her then yeah I would say she was a crazy loon.
....

No, that just means that there are at least 200 touchy idiots.
I don't need to preface every god damned criticism of this country with, "oh and I respect and love those guys paid to kill people who are all beautiful wonderful special snowflakes."
Grow the hell up. If I didn't name you, then I probably am not angry at you.

Edit: I didn't mean to sound so full of righteous wrath.

[the_std]

But a business is different you need to work with your neighbor's not piss them all off.

Why is it any different? He has a right to fail at his business if he wants to. There is no difference, other than him losing out on money.

[Mr Slugger]

Why is it any different? He has a right to fail at his business if he wants to. There is no difference, other than him losing out on money.

I guess you're right there. Although if he wants his business to fail then he wouldn't be trying to do all this stuff in an attempt to get his business license back.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

So the guy's a moron. He's definitely not helping himself by disrespecting/pissing off his potential customers, but that's not the issue.

Let me break this down.

American Flag = American Ideals = Freedom, Liberty, etc.

Which is what soldiers risk their lives to fight for.

By flying the flag upside down he's not disrespecting the cloth (aka saying "fuck you, piece of cloth") he's disrespecting the symbol (aka "fuck you, America and everything you stand for") which is more or less the same as disrespecting the soldier ("fuck you and everything you died to protect")

Get it? It's not about the cloth, we aren't that uber patriotic. When it comes to flags (apparently) flying them upside down is not unlike burning them. So how would an (actual, loving) parent of a gay son/daughter feel if the person across the street started burning rainbow banners?
Or, on the flip side, someone burning a Nazi flag across the street from a skinhead?

If you express admonition or disrespect for an image that symbolizes a person and their ideals, you are disrespecting them. If said person doesn't identify with that symbol, then there's obviously not going to be a reaction.

[Flyndaran]

Why is flying a flag upside down insulting EVERYTHING a nation supposedly stands for? Why can't it insult only certain aspects like how a nation FAILS to live up to its stated ideals?
I might fly a flag upside down until a sitting president appologises to the world for this nation's accepted torture.
In actuality, I won't, because I don't expect any nation to ever keep from sinking to inhumane lows on a yearly basis.

[Rapscallion]

Two hundred touchy idiots?

In terms of response to offence, a dozen complaints is regarded as a large number. The BBC has issued apologies on a dozen complaints, if memory serves. People are often offended, but not offended enough to make a formal complaint.

Whether or not their point is stupid is irrelevant - that's a large number and something the community leaders cannot ignore.

Rapscallion

[Flyndaran]

...
Whether or not their point is stupid is irrelevant - that's a large number and something the community leaders cannot ignore.

Rapscallion

I never said that community leaders should ignore it. But I know that I would succumb to anger and call them all idiots for coming to such a dumb conclusion... even if my own intrepretation was itself wrong like the guy's.

[Slytovhand]

So the guy's a moron. He's definitely not helping himself by disrespecting/pissing off his potential customers, but that's not the issue.

Let me break this down.

American Flag = American Ideals = Freedom, Liberty, etc.

Which is what soldiers risk their lives to fight for.

By flying the flag upside down he's not disrespecting the cloth (aka saying "fuck you, piece of cloth") he's disrespecting the symbol (aka "fuck you, America and everything you stand for") which is more or less the same as disrespecting the soldier ("fuck you and everything you died to protect")

Get it? It's not about the cloth, we aren't that uber patriotic. When it comes to flags (apparently) flying them upside down is not unlike burning them. So how would an (actual, loving) parent of a gay son/daughter feel if the person across the street started burning rainbow banners?
Or, on the flip side, someone burning a Nazi flag across the street from a skinhead?

If you express admonition or disrespect for an image that symbolizes a person and their ideals, you are disrespecting them. If said person doesn't identify with that symbol, then there's obviously not going to be a reaction.

I thought this line of ... 'reasoning' would come into it somewhere along the lines...

Firstly, I think the guy is an idiot... but only because he's supposed to be in business, and as ppl have said, he's shooting himself in the foot.. what on earth is he hoping to gain by pissing off a lot of people???

Secondly... he's 'in distress' because of what??? Rather idiotic thought pattern on that account... well, EW comes to mind... "I can't get my way, so I'll bitch and whinge and whine til I do..." .. yeah, good one!

As for the outcry... and this is why I'm quoting Wingates... wrong! The flag (any flag) represents an ideal... it is not the ideal itself, it is merely the symbol of one. What that 'ideal' is depends... Same also with a term like 'America'... it's a name, and other than naming a particular piece of land mass, that's all it is. What you choose to associate is something completely seperate. What does the symbol of the name 'America' mean? What are the ideals?? Dunno! Different things, for different people. Same with a piece of cloth... burning (or any other form of corrupted display) of the symbol is merely against the symbol - not against the ideal. After all, what happens when the ideals are so in opposition to the reality?? (Ie, governments recklessly, and selfishly, attacking other countries...).

Soldiers... soldiers aren't even a symbol of an ideal. They're people. Human beings. Some are good, some are bad, some are plain stupid and some are brilliant. Please, let's not go glorifying them because they partake in something that they happen to believe in... after all, if it was an Iraqi flag, you'd bet no-one would give a damn.. no-one's going to complain about the 'disrespect' of anything done to that. What?? That's different??? "Iraq is an evil and corrupt region of the world, and they're flag is meaningless"??? Hello???? What's your argument about 'ideals'??? Do you really think the Iraqis are so evil that they too can't have ideals that their governments ignore??? No, if you're going to make comment on one symbol of ideals, you've got to apply them to all (unless you don't mind being a hypocrit.. in which case your opinion is even less than worthless).

If you express admonition or disrespect for an image that symbolizes a person and their ideals, you are disrespecting them.

Firstly - taking it out of context - so are you now saying that no-one is allowed to admonish someone at all? Certainly, you've just said that to admonish is to disrespect, and from the vein of the argument, I'd presume you'd say that's not good...??? (no, admonition =/= disrespect!)


Secondly, and not out of context, are you also suggesting that it's not ok to be disrespectful of someone's ideals? I personally don't have any qualms with being downright rude towards someone else's 'ideals'... how about Phelps?? Or, is it entirely dependant on whose side you're standing on? It's ok to be disrepectful to things you don't like, but not to the things that you personally respect and admire?? Which is the tone I take from your post. No-one is allowed to be disrespectful towards your symbol... but

If said person doesn't identify with that symbol, then there's obviously not going to be a reaction.

would indicate that it's ok if it's not anyone around you. Yes?


Should the mother 'get over it'?? Yes and no. As for the examples added, if a rainbow flag was burnt across from the mother of a gay person, yes, she'd feel something, and be rightly upset. But DO.NOT. come on with all the 'But he's so wonderful and patriotic and snowflake ' and all... The photos are meant to elicit emotion by those who will be moved to such things (obviously, not I), so in that respect (and that respect alone)... get over it! Just because someone goes to a war does not automatically make them a hero or a saint... or even a basically nice person, for that matter. (and, to be honest, it does make them a bit of a git if they won't even look at all the facts of the matter, and make a fairly intelligent decision on their own accord. Her son did not go to that war to protect 'America'... he went to kill human beings who just happen to live thousands of miles away - it was a choice that he made! If he joined years before, and ended up getting sent there - that's a different story, and I'll just throw in an apology if that is the case, here and now).

And lastly, as was commented on at the bottom of the link, and relates to the mother 'getting over it'... her son 'died so your rights were kept alive'.. is all I can say. If that means you can hang your flag upside down... then damn, doesn't it suck reaching for ideals that other people don't share???


(sort of OT... I thought one commenter on that page was a complete idiot..."That you can come on a web board and defend his behavior is FREE SPEACH !! Cherish it, for our rights as we know them are in peril. " Bwahahahaha..... such comments should be prefaced with "I am an idiot, and I'll prove it by saying....")

[Wingates_Hellsing]

@Slytovhand

You know, I didn't realize that words could so easily be placed in my mouth without any justification. No, wait, that's always been possible, it's just not correct.

Guess what? I meant every damn thing I said in that post. Symbols are a form of communication, serving as analogues/avatars of the things they represent. That's why wearing a red swastika armband means 'I'm a (neo) Nazi" and not "I like to wear swastikas".

Disrespecting someone, whether it's personal as in face-to-face or impersonal as in through symbols *wink*, is rude, unkind and douchy.

Is that a bad thing? Well, I can see why you might think that my answer would be yes, but it isn't.

I believe in freedom of speech fundamentally. We have the right to be rude and disrespectful to each other, hell, we can be real assholes if we feel like it. And we should, because it's important that people are able to express anything they choose to. Sometimes negative things need to be expressed, so it's only right that negative expression is treated exactly the same as positive expression.

That guy has the right to disrespect the whole damn town, and they have the right to be pissed at him for it. Just like the church has the right to say that homosexuals are evil and I have the right to hate them as a result.

People have IMO an obligation to express themselves however they wish so long as they don't visit physical harm on anyone. Suppressing any of that is just wrong.

At no point did I say that this speech was bad.
At no point did I say that this only applies to the American flag, in fact, I used a couple of other examples.
At no point did I agree with either side (offender/offended).

This situation is awesome. It's the best fucking thing ever. People have their opinions, and they're putting them out there. That's the way it's supposed to work. If I had my way, there would be a daily protest march in every city with the appropriate counter-protest every day. If possible, the people in charge of each group would get together for a televised debate on national television too. Skinheads, homophobes, pedophiles, hippies, rednecks, stoners, gangstas, everyone would be allowed their chance to say whatever they want to say.

If you read my post properly you would see that I never once said any of the things you accused me of, save for the opinion that symbols are a valid medium for negative expression towards people. We disagree on that, which is fine. So unless you can point to where I excluded other symbols, took sides, or suggested that the man was wrong to express himself, let's keep it to the topic at hand which is at the moment:

Can symbols symbolize people? I say yes, you, apparently, say no.
Does the disrespect of a symbol translate into disrespect for what it symbolizes? To this, we both apparently say, yes.
Both of these are relevant as does pertain to the question:
Does the American Flag symbolize Americans insofar as it may be used as a medium to show disrespect towards Americans?

I think so.
What do you think?

[machinest]

I would say that most times that The Flag is disrespected it is because the person doing so wishes to say that the country or government is doing things that in their opinion fail to live up to the ideals of this country.

[Flyndaran]

I would say that most times that The Flag is disrespected it is because the person doing so wishes to say that the country or government is doing things that in their opinion fail to live up to the ideals of this country.

That subtlety is always lost on the jingoistic loudmouths. But like I said before, every government is garbage, ours is just one of the better dungheaps. I think no flag should be respected, let alone matter when it is disrespected. As someone once wrote, capitalism is the worst form of government... except for all the others.

[Slytovhand]

Awww... I dunno Wingates.... re-reading that first post of yours (a few times) certainly reads like you're taking a stance.

You haven't qualified any of your statements with 'What people think', or 'How others see it"... so, in lieu of those qualifiers, it certainly reads to me (and, I'd suggest, others) that you're expressing your opinion on the matter...

I will apoligise if my rant seemed to have been directed you in the section relating to Iraqi's (specifically)...it wasn't - It was actually directed to those who see a massive difference, which tends to those who want to glorify one group (and, in order to do so, need to contrast it with another, evil, group).

American Flag = American Ideals = Freedom, Liberty, etc.

Which is what soldiers risk their lives to fight for.

Well, that sort of led to it... it certainly read to me that you were saying that soldiers who fight for the American flag are fighting for Freedom and Liberty...(which could be contrasted with others, who obviously aren't). And, since the son in question went to Iraq....


Anyway, moving ahead...

A) Can symbols symbolize people? I say yes, you, apparently, say no.
B) Does the disrespect of a symbol translate into disrespect for what it symbolizes? To this, we both apparently say, yes.
Both of these are relevant as does pertain to the question:
C) Does the American Flag symbolize Americans insofar as it may be used as a medium to show disrespect towards Americans?

I think so.
What do you think?

A) 'symbolise' yes, but that's all it is. Similar to the naming of the group.. I'm Australian, but that doesn't mean the name is more important than the ideal, nor that anyone who is Australian is by definition any better nor any worse... and the symbol (name) doesn't really mean anything other than merely a sense of identification.

B) Hmmm - not sure I necessarily indicated that. Actually, I'm pretty damn sure I argued against that... although I will admit that people are quite prone to do so. Given that, it's silly to attack the symbol of the ideal. And I think that's one of the biggest problems around... take the US for example, and being 'unpatriotic'. You can't make a sensible argument against the activities of the US government without copping that tag. I think that's ridiculous, but it happens all the time. While I see a distinct difference, I also acknowledge that the rest of the planet has yet to become so enlightened Take a more Buddhist or Zen attitude... and hold on lightly, let go lightly.

C) Certainly, there are a lot of people who think so. Not only Americans themselves, but also their enemies, who revel in burning those flags. But the issue is two-fold.. intent (of the 'disrespector') and the attitudes of the person symbolised. Burn an Australian flag, a lot of people will get up in arms... and a lot of us will remain apathetic and not care. So, what happens when somebody wants to show anger and disrespect towards a group, and does something that said group really has no issue with? What happens when, for example, devout Buddhists see the statues of Buddha getting pulled down and destroyed... 'no attachment' ideology kicks in, and they don't overly care (it's all illlusion anyway!).

And to answer your question C) - well, take a look at Flyns response, and your own... you say 'yes', but you also indicate that you're not offended, nor that you feel much disrespect from the actions of said car salesman.... So, are you sure that the answer is 'yes' for you?

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Allow me to elaborate a bit. While I do think that many American soldiers do what they do because they believe it is for the benefit of our countries liberty and safety, this isn't because their Americans specifically but because they are fighting for a country they see as having those ideals at heart. There are plenty of countries that do, America being only one of them. Meanwhile, a person taking up arms for the same reason in a country they believe to be against liberty would more likely do so as a rebel and not a soldier. I used the American flag as an example because it is the symbol 'in play' in the situation this particular thread is about.

A) My point is that people who take out their rage by burning (or you know, whatevering) a symbol are more likely trying to express rage through the symbol at what it symbolizes rather than just at the symbol itself, although it seems almost everyone manages just fine to do both regardless of which they are actually attempting (just look at the swastika, perfectly legitimate good luck charm ruined by people unable to separate it from the *****s who used it) Although, to be fair, this is mostly the fault of those who witness the act and don't understand which is actually happening.

B) I'll agree that people are (very) ridiculous about taking any sort of criticism pertaining to event the most specific part of this country as criticism of everything (IMO because their idiots). That said, I've always thought that the correct symbol for government would be a nice presidential seal, or image of 'insert government building' or acronym. The flag has more to do with the people en masse IMO but others don't see it that way. It's important to direct your outrage at only what you intend to, and part of that is using symbols that are more specific or that aren't (however incorrectly) applied too broadly, like the American flag.

I don't know if I'm still making sense at all, but on we go:

C) I guess those people are out of luck and need to find another way of getting their message across. Of course, like with the Buddhists, no kind of message at all would really work so any bone picked with them is going to be a tough one. Although it's fair to say that a substantial part of getting a critical message out there is to contact potential supporters and not just those you are criticizing. Unfortunately many resort to general destruction and terrorist methods which, if anything, strengthen whatever it is you're trying to destroy. Like a fictional character once said "If you attack a group from the outside, they pull together, become stronger..."

And in response to your last question, yeah, it's 'yes'. Because it has been used thus before, to the point where burning an American flag in most situations is intended to do exactly that in the first place, and is also taken that way by those who see it.
To break it down:
I am not offended that this guy is expressing his opinion.
I am offended in that he did it in a stupid way (I am offended at stupidity).
I am not offended at his (possibly accidental) blanket insult to all Americans because I don't see myself as that much of an American any more, since my ideals seem to be so out of line with the average American (now anyway, I bet me and the founders would have gotten along in that respect). Also it's pretty clear that he's just throwing a hissy fit .

Hopefully that was marginally understandable.