Obama's health plans

[BroomJockey]

I'll agree with that. But it has to be the half that voted for W twice.

Fuck no. We want people that'll blend with our population. We'll take the ones who voted for Obama. But we'll need to liberal them up a bit.

[AFPheonix]

Heh. If shit doesn't improve, I may consider getting dual citizenship since I'm eligible.

[SimplyAnother]

Dealing with this issue on a personal level, and it's driving me freaking mad.

The misinformation coming from those opposing reform is just ridiculous (death squads? Really?)

Then you get people who ---more than likely--already HAVE insurance from the government, people over 65, who probably have medicare, talking about how they don't want the government involved.

Meanwhile, we do nothing, people continue to be uninsured, or underinsured, one catastrophic illness, accident. whatever, from total financial ruin.
It's absolutely insane that this would have to happen in this country.

The things I'm hearing from people I actually know varies from completely buying the lies being spread by those who want to keep things as they are, to people who just don't think that people deserve access to affordable healthcare, to those who bring up the constitutionality of it all, to people who really are sick of the way things are, and want change, but hell if they know how to get it.

I'd say, of the people I actually know, the ones who are of the "what, even lazy good for nothings getting health insurance? noooo" variety than the "omg, they're going to kill grandma" variety. Don't really talk to many of the constitution folks, but interestingly enough, all of the ones I know tend to already have excellent health insurance. Now, I'm sure, that there are plenty who have no insurance, but I haven't met any. We also get the ones who like to trot out the absolute worst case scenerios from any country with a NHS. Because, bad things NEVER happen here. No one EVER dies waiting for anything. Ever. Or something. The point is to scare people.

Admittedly I haven't discussed it much in depth with them, because it just makes me angry.

More than once, I have had it suggested, to get better insurance, you get a better job. Great, for me. I'm not that old, I'm reasonably healthy. I do have options. Now, what about someone who is older, someone who has been at the same job for 20 years, but that job either goes away (many many manufacturing jobs), or their benefits are striped away as a cost saving measure. (It does make you wonder how our car companies might have fared, had they not been locked into providing health insurance for their employees and retirees. that's a big chunk of change right there)

How realistic is it for them to just go "get a better job". (Frankly, it's insane that health insurance is tied to employment anyway.) It's not. And these are those good, hardworking people that are often brought up.

Now, as I understand it, in countries where there is national healthcare, or whatever, private insurance is still available to those who want it/ can afford it. But there is that basic level of benefit that is for everyone, regardless of income. That's what I want.

No, If my uninsured loved one goes to the ER tomorrow, he won't be turned away due to inability to pay. No, he'll be seen, and they'll treat him just as they treat anyone else. But unlike that patient with health insurance, he'll walk away with a bill of a few thousand dollars. And sure, the hospital nearest me does offer to work with the uninsured, often times knocking the bill down to 20-40 percent of the original--but it shouldn't have to be that way.

I know too many people who can't go see a regular physician, because they don't have the cash to pay out of pocket, because they don't have medical insurance for whatever reason--who end up worse off then they normally would, because of it. And those same people, who when it gets bad enough that they NEED to see a doctor, because they're just that bad off--are afraid to go, because they fear the bill. Yes, it might be stupid, but it's true.

And the fact that THAT goes on in this country pisses me off. The fact that anyone goes without health care because they're afraid of having to pay? That's freaking crazy.

You guys have to have heard of these things, the doctors running the medical clinic--right now, they're at the Forum in Los Angeles, but last week they were in Wise, Virginia (southwestern part of the state). The fact that there are doctors and nurses, willing to donate their time and effort etc, warms my heart. The fact that it's needed in the freaking United States of America? Pisses me off. I'm practically seething.

I just hope we finally do something. If we end up shelving it, and ignoring now--we're screwed. If they'd have been allowed to do any real reforms in the early-mid 90's, we'd be 15 years into this, and I think we'd be better off.

I'm babbling, and probably conflating things, for that I apologize.

And I know that the plans being put forth right now aren't REALLY what I want. But they're better than doing absolutely nothing. Because, nothing is what we have been doing forever.

[joe hx]

The misinformation coming from those opposing reform is just ridiculous (death squads? Really?)

the thing that angers me over misinformation such as this is that it hides much of the sound, logical opposition to a government solution (not necessarily reform itself)

Then you get people who ---more than likely--already HAVE insurance from the government, people over 65, who probably have medicare, talking about how they don't want the government involved.

probably because they already know what a sucky job the gov't does for health care i don't want it forced on the rest of americans? just a thought.

I'd say, of the people I actually know, the ones who are of the "what, even lazy good for nothings getting health insurance? noooo" variety than the "omg, they're going to kill grandma" variety.

um maybe i'm stupid or maybe you were tired when you wrote this but i don't understand this sentence. grammar issue, methinks (please don't take offense to this!!)

(Frankly, it's insane that health insurance is tied to employment anyway.)

i always thought the idea behind employment healthcare was either to insure you employees are healthy, and thus have less sick days, or to pay employees more tax-free

my rant time:

my opinion of the current "ObamaCare" solution is that, if passed, all we will be doing is going from one sucky system to another sucky system. i don't think the problem is health insurance or healthcare. the problem is healthcare funding

if you have one, take a look at the "explanation of benefits" your insurance company sends you. you'll see that your doctor billed, oh say $1000, to your insurance company. your insurance company then decided to pay, say $750.

try that at the grocery store next time. buy $75 of groceries, hand the clerk a fifty, and then walk out. it just doesn't make sense. if you were allowed to do this, then the grocery store would have to inflate its prices just to stay afloat. same thing with your doctor - and then when someone who doesn't have insurance gets the *huge* bill, they have to pay it all (if, of course they do pay it - else it'll ding their credit)

another problem is the use of health insurance as health maintenance funding. this is where a lot of anger lies, with people getting denied for "preexisting conditions." a common analogy is with car insurance - you wouldn't expect you car insurance to pay for gas or oil changes, but you also wouldn't expect to be denied coverage because your car has bad shocks.

so what is the solution? i don't know. would you rather have your healthcare decisions decided by a company or the government? we need somehow to give the power to make healthcare decisions to those who receive said healthcare. i like the idea of health savings accounts, and i think they should exist similar to 401k's - your employer matches your contributions somehow. the hard part is starting these - your employer can't match your contribution if you're unemployed (since you have no employer).

that's it. and now i will be ripped apart...

[Nyoibo]

Much as I may bitch about my country on occasion, it's times like this I'm glad I live here.

[SimplyAnother]

um maybe i'm stupid or maybe you were tired when you wrote this but i don't understand this sentence. grammar issue, methinks (please don't take offense to this!!)

No, you're not stupid, I apparently left out words when I came back through and edited. No offense taken.

Originally Posted by SimplyAnother
I'd say, of the people I actually know, the ones who are of the "what, even lazy good for nothings getting health insurance? noooo" variety than the "omg, they're going to kill grandma" variety.

I was trying to say that I knew more people who were against insurance for everyone, than people who buy the misinformation being spread. I failed. Yes, I was tired, but I was more angry than anything. Yesterday was a bad day for dealing with a loved one who hasn't got any insurance (despite the good job, etc). So, it was a bit raw and close to the surface.

For the record, I care [as in deal with the billing, doctors, etc] for someone who is on Medicare + Tricare for Life, and while there might be some issues, it is better than absolutely nothing, which is what many Americans have.

Employment based healthcare had its place, when it started, but as more and more Americans change jobs (or are laid off), it makes no sense to have health insurance tied to any one job. And good luck being able to afford COBRA.

[AFPheonix]

More than once, I have had it suggested, to get better insurance, you get a better job. Great, for me. I'm not that old, I'm reasonably healthy. I do have options. Now, what about someone who is older, someone who has been at the same job for 20 years, but that job either goes away (many many manufacturing jobs), or their benefits are striped away as a cost saving measure. (It does make you wonder how our car companies might have fared, had they not been locked into providing health insurance for their employees and retirees. that's a big chunk of change right there)

How realistic is it for them to just go "get a better job". (Frankly, it's insane that health insurance is tied to employment anyway.) It's not. And these are those good, hardworking people that are often brought up.

How about the flip side of the coin? How about someone with a job they hate, but has good insurance? They aren't free to go get the job they want because then they'll lose the coverage they need, especially if they're using it for themselves or a loved one for some condition or another. Why are we chaining ourselves to stuff like this when we can free up and offer more choice as far as jobs?

[daleduke17]

Why are we chaining ourselves to stuff like this when we can free up and offer more choice as far as jobs?

Because I don't want the US Government fucking something else up. Yes, what we have currently is broken, but, I don't want the government taking it over as the federal government has a history of not setting plans up correctly and actually making whatever worse with a lot of paperwork, red tape and ridiculous rules.

Like Illinois' idiotic smoking ban. The state set it up, put it into effect, THEN tried to figure out who would enforce it, fines and the appeals process. It went into effect January 1, 2009. They finally figured out the specifics this past week. Why not figure everything out THEN put it into effect?

The current Illinois provided medical insurance is way past fucked up. They said the only available dentist for my area is in Chicago - three hours away. Uh, no. If you're providing care for Illinoisans, provide care for downstate as well, local to us. Doctors? A little more reasonable, but, almost none in my local area (within about 25 miles) are taking new patients. The doctors who ARE taking new patients aren't covered by the insurance.

Plus, I've seen the government deny a truly disabled person SSI because (according to the state) she could still drive a bus (former job) even though her knees were so shot she couldn't get in the bus to even attempt driving it. Yet some person can eat themselves into being bed ridden can get SSI because they have "a problem".

So, no, I don't want the government to take over healthcare. Do I want something done about the current situation? Yes. This country needs LESS government intervention, not MORE.

[SimplyAnother]

How about the flip side of the coin? How about someone with a job they hate, but has good insurance? They aren't free to go get the job they want because then they'll lose the coverage they need, especially if they're using it for themselves or a loved one for some condition or another. Why are we chaining ourselves to stuff like this when we can free up and offer more choice as far as jobs?

Good point.

I actually know a few people in that situation, working the crap job, because it does offer reasonable insurance that covers their spouse (or childs) chronic condition. Not because they want to work the crap job.

bunch of random, pointless stuff, that I have no idea why I'm sharingeleted information about me, and my situation.
Deleted information about my grandmother.

Deleted information about my mother.

I'm not sure why I shared (the deleted information), I guess to say, I'm not coming at this as someone who isn't familiar with the way things work. And I'm not coming at this as someone who as just recently jumped on the health care band wagon. It's been one of those things I've cared about since way before Obama, way before Michael Moores movie, probably dating back to when HRC was attempting health care reform back in the mid 90's. When I was still a teenager. When I first heard that there were countries with national health care. I just want to make it clear, that this isn't some "fad" for me. This isn't a cause of the day/week/year.

(ETA: I have deleted personal information from this post. if it must be returned, I apologize.)

[Rapscallion]

Because I don't want the US Government fucking something else up.

As I said in the original post, it's something that would need to be done right. There are plenty of health schemes run by various nations, and the best thing to do would be to look at them and at what doesn't work, then avoid those pitfalls.

This country needs LESS government intervention, not MORE.

What about the needs of the country's people? Less governmental intervention on this would lead to more people facing bankruptcy for re-mortgages they can't afford for health treatment. Can you honestly say that's right?

Rapscallion

[AdminAssistant]

So, no, I don't want the government to take over healthcare. Do I want something done about the current situation? Yes. This country needs LESS government intervention, not MORE.

Less government...so you'd put us all at the mercy of insurance companies? As much as our government does screw up, I trust them more than anyone trying to make a buck off the pain and suffering of others.

[daleduke17]

Less government...so you'd put us all at the mercy of insurance companies? As much as our government does screw up, I trust them more than anyone trying to make a buck off the pain and suffering of others.

Aren't we already?

[DesignFox]

Less government...so you'd put us all at the mercy of insurance companies? As much as our government does screw up, I trust them more than anyone trying to make a buck off the pain and suffering of others.

Aren't we already?

I don't think Obama is trying to do this. But I do believe a certain previous president and his administration tried to.

<snip>
More than once, I have had it suggested, to get better insurance, you get a better job. <snip>

How realistic is it for them to just go "get a better job". (Frankly, it's insane that health insurance is tied to employment anyway.) It's not. And these are those good, hardworking people that are often brought up.

Now, as I understand it, in countries where there is national healthcare, or whatever, private insurance is still available to those who want it/ can afford it. But there is that basic level of benefit that is for everyone, regardless of income. That's what I want.

<snip>

I know too many people who can't go see a regular physician, because they don't have the cash to pay out of pocket, because they don't have medical insurance for whatever reason--who end up worse off then they normally would, because of it. And those same people, who when it gets bad enough that they NEED to see a doctor, because they're just that bad off--are afraid to go, because they fear the bill. Yes, it might be stupid, but it's true.

And the fact that THAT goes on in this country pisses me off. The fact that anyone goes without health care because they're afraid of having to pay? That's freaking crazy.

<snip>

I've been told many times by my Ex (who had a ridiculously awesome job) that I should "suck it up and get a better job."

Well, I'm not qualified to work a six figure job at a fortune 500 company. I guess my life is just worthless.

I have shit insurance now, but at least it's insurance. I've been in that place called "no insurance" and let me tell you how fucking scary THAT shit is. It BLOWS having to pay out of pocket. It BLOWS knowing you are sick and you can do nothing about it because you either A) can't afford the doctor visit or B) can't afford the treatment.

I once had a boss at a part-time job ask me, when I was sick and coughing my brains out at work, why I didn't go to the doctor. I told him that if the cheap-ass company we were working for would give me full time work and benefits I might actually be able to AFFORD to see a doctor (they'd been BS'ing me with promises of a promotion for over a year). He had the good sense to shut up and look sheepish.

I don't know WHAT we need to do, but I am TIRED of being at the mercy of the insurance companies. And holy shit in a handbasket, god forbid you switch jobs. You have ANY IDEA how expensive COBRA is???? I went from one company (that gave me half-way decent insurance) to part-time, and when I saw the cost of COBRA I was like, "are you fucking shitting me?" I had a heart attack opening the estimate! There was NO WAY my part-time salary would even BEGIN to cover the cost of insurance, let alone the rest of my living expenses! Forget having hobbies or spare time or even being a happy well-balanced individual.

I've seen some of the propaganda being spewed. It amuses me to no end. I mean, really? What the fuck is the difference? There are already waiting lists. You already have to wait to have a procedure done. You already wait in the ER. The insurance companies ALREADY dictate what doctor you can and cannot see. What treatments you do or do not qualify for. WHAT exactly could be so HORRIBLE about letting the government take a crack at it? Is it really gonna get WORSE?

I can't see that it would. If everyone were taken care of, less crazy procedures would be necessary- because rather than waiting for all health problems to spin out of control...rather than wait to be treated or not seek treatment for fear of going into debt or bankruptcy...rather than just waiting til your 65 and have all sorts of interesting problems and going on medicare...rather than getting knocked up or staying out of work simply so you're poor enough for the government to help you...people might...you know...solve their issues and PREVENT their health problems from spinning out of control.

If you could treat the cold before it turns into the flu, you're going to save the doctors, yourself and the people around you a lot of time and energy because you won't get them sick, you won't stay sick as long, and you won't require extensive treatments. Rather than letting yourself GET cancer, you'll get those screenings done. You'll take all measures of precaution, catch shit early, get treated more quickly and free up the system for the next person.

*angry* I'll stop ranting now.

[Boozy]

Tying health care to employment is an economic disaster. It virtually guarantees a stagnant job market, for example. For economies to grow, they have to be dynamic, and this means workers need to be as free as possible to leave jobs and pick up new ones. Risk-taking leads to productivity. Employer-provided health care turns what should be a financial risk into a potentially life-threatening one. So people stay in jobs long after they've begun stagnating there, just to keep the insurance.

I don't know how Americans want to handle health care reform, but the current system should be considered unacceptable by everyone.

[Tanasi]

What it's boiling down to is staying with the evil you know or going with the evil you don't. I know with commercial insurance I can appeal decisions higher up in the company and maybe eventually to a government entity and if nothing else sue them. In the mean time if I have the money, benefactor, or just plain lucky enough I can get the desired treatment.
With government insurance do I have the right to appeal??? I already know to sue I have to have their permission where the decision may or maynot be made by a jury or some admin judge. However in the mean time since the goverment is controling who gets what regardless of the payer I can't get care even if I have the money. So if I get denied I'm screwed.

Regardless of what the politicians say eventually health care under the Obama option will be rationed. I say this because there's only so much money they can take from those that pay the majority of taxes (you know the rich people) before they balk, therefore the only other place to get money is the middleclass and if you tax them enough you won't get re-elected (afterall that's the important part.) So we've got all we can get from the rich, can't get much from the middle class and get re-elected, the poor have nothing to get yet we have these trillions in bills what do we do??? Well we have to cut down on the bills. Yo New Jersey you have this much this year to spend on health care good luck, New York, Michagan, California you have this much good luck, you red states are shit out of luck we only have half as much for your citizens as the blue.

While out getting lunch today a caller on Rush Limbaugh's show said that he was in his early 20's and was looking for a business opportunity to make millions from. He wasn't asking for a loan or a handout but wanted to know that after Obamacare is implemented where would the next health-care haven be??? He wanted to know because he's going to be positioned to build clinics to provide those services.