Obama's health plans

[Pedersen]

I say this because there's only so much money they can take from those that pay the majority of taxes (you know the rich people) before they balk

What are you talking about? The richest 1% pay nearly 50% of all the taxes paid in.

Interesting. All of the reading I've ever done shows something quite different: The middle class pays more in taxes than anybody else.

Go ahead, read that link. The middle class gets shafted. What's more, the middle class demands to be shafted, on the grounds that they hope to strike it rich themselves someday, and want to be able to avoid paying as much in taxes.

It's an interesting conundrum.

[Tanasi]

I don't think you understand the concept of "tax shelter," but whatever.

Actually I do understand tax shelters. I don't have a problem with them as long as they're legal. Now that USB is turning over information on US citizens to the IRS thousands are scrambling to get right with them. I wonder how many voted for Obama?

[joe hx]

Interesting. All of the reading I've ever done shows something quite different: The middle class pays more in taxes than anybody else.

I probably just missed it, but all I got was that individuals pay more taxes than corporations. Perhaps you could direct me to the correct paragraph? Thanks.

[Rapscallion]

I'm told I don't pay enough.

By who?

Rapscallion

[Fashion Lad!]

Interesting. All of the reading I've ever done shows something quite different: The middle class pays more in taxes than anybody else.

Go ahead, read that link. The middle class gets shafted. What's more, the middle class demands to be shafted, on the grounds that they hope to strike it rich themselves someday, and want to be able to avoid paying as much in taxes.

It's an interesting conundrum.

Your article was from 2004. Mine is from 2009. And it shows the top 20% paying 69.3% and the middle 60% paying 29.7%.

So, we'll go by my information. Yours is out-dated.

[Boozy]

Pedersen and FashionLad's statistics appear to be comparing different things. Pedersen's link shows that "the middle class" pay more as a percentage of their total income than the top 400 taxpayers. FashionLad's link indicates that the top 20% pay twice that of the middle 60% in total dollars paid. It doesn't really matter which table is more recent, since we would be comparing apples and oranges.

I don't care enough to find any numbers of my own, but I would imagine that the top 20% of taxpayers pay at least twice that of the middle 60% because they earn (at least) twice as much. This would be true even under a flat tax system, the kind that Ron Paul supports.

I believe that Pedersen's approach - finding out who pays the most as a percentage of their income - would lead to the most telling figures about the American tax system.

In any case, FashionLad's original claim, that "The richest 1% pay nearly 50% of all the taxes paid in" is yet to be proven. The closest I have heard to that number is that they pay about 1/3 of all federal individual income taxes. While that sounds high, it is important to keep in mind that the richest 1% of Americans also control about 40% of the nation's wealth.

[Tanasi]

By who?

Rapscallion

Chief amoungst them is the Great and Wonderful Obammy, after all if you make more than $250k a year you're rich and it's your duty to pay more. Next is his lieutents of Pelosi, Reid, and Barney Fwrank because according to them it's my patriotic duty to pay more after all I won in life's lottery where not everyone else did. So I guess it was just plain luck that I'm am where I am and none of the hard work was necessary.
Well now that I'm through laughing I have a few words for Mr. Spread the wealth and his lackies, "Fuck You." With the release of the OMB prediction of the deficite for the next 5 years of 9+ trillion dollars (and that's before ObamaCare) they know the China well is just about dry. Even though the money they're lending us is our own money (trade imbalence) they're not going to put more good money after bad. So where does that next shot of revenue come from??? Well the top 5% is screwed because it's a given there and that leaves the remainder. Well there's only so much they can get there and still get re-elected (afterall that's the real reason for getting here is to stay here). So where is that next pile of money gonna come from???
Japenese don't have much to invest and if they did they wouldn't. The Europeans aren't in any better shape than we are. African's are demanding $70+ billion in aid, South Americans? yeah that's rich. The Arabs don't have that kind of money. Where oh where is a big pile of money??? Hey anybody remember that Clinton stooge that wanted to "take" 15% of retirement portfolios to finance HillaryCare??? Well let's do her one better and take control and we'll "borrow" against those accounts. Hey we'll also dole out their retirement payments based upon their "needs" and that will save us billions in Social Security.
Scary huh???

[Fashion Lad!]

I absolutely abhor the idea of taxing someone more because they make more money. If people want equality, it doesn't mean give to yourself by taking from someone else. That's not equality.

Let's take an example

Tansai is a small business owner. They employee 2 other people other than themself. (We're going to use simple numbers.) Tansai's business grosses $500,000 a year. The government charges Tansai 30% a year to make $500,000. So after taxes, Tansai has $350,000 a year for business expenses. Tansai is failry generous and pays their employees $50,000 a year. So, there goes $100,000 right there. After all other business expenses, Tansai can pay themself $200,000 a year.

It's a recession, and the government is spending money to stimulate the economy. But due to the recession, Tansai's business is down 10%. So now the business grosses $450,000. Tansai is still in that 30% bracket. $315,000 left for expenses. Well, they still have to pay for their employees. So, we're down to $215,000 So Tansai can only pay themself $175,000 a year. Taking a $25,000 cut in pay.

What happens in the government goes, "let's take 35%" due to us having to spend money to stimulate the economy? $292,000 - 100,000 (employees) - $50,000 for other business expenses - Tansai now makes $142,000 a year. The two employees are going to stay at $50,000. No raise.

More than half of America works for a small business. More than half of America won't get a raise and cost of living is going up. We've effectively made the middle class poorer by taxing the "rich".

[Tanasi]

I've asked this question several times but here it goes again:
When's the last time a poor man, gave you a good paying job?

[Fashion Lad!]

I've asked this question several times but here it goes again:
When's the last time a poor man, gave you a good paying job?

Never!

I hope one day to make a fairly substantial income. (Honestly, I really want to have a lot of money.) I don't want someone taking 30-40% of sometime that I work very hard for. Some people have low paying jobs (some, not all) because they don't want to do anything better for themselves. So, they don't pay taxes and still want to raise my taxes. I find that sickening.

[Rapscallion]

I absolutely abhor the idea of taxing someone more because they make more money. If people want equality, it doesn't mean give to yourself by taking from someone else. That's not equality.

I'm not able to give a proper answer right now, but the alternative is to tax people who ... don't have any money? Doesn't really work for me.

Not tax anyone? Well, sure, but nothing would get done.

I'm all for equality, but equality of input has to come into it as well. Guarantee a basic (and I mean basic) level of living and give people the chance to build a better life for themselves. If they don't take it, they can wallow around like the worthless people they are. The aim is to provide some sort of reward for working. People won't improve themselves unless there's a reason to.

I'll probably put more in later.

Rapscallion

[AdminAssistant]

Alrighty, I make $12.5 K a year and work for a state-sponsored University, so, technically, I am an employee of the state. I choose to make this little money because it's part of my education and training to, hopefully, one day graduate and get a full-time, tenure track faculty position. Although, frankly, those are getting extremely difficult to find, since our education system is under-funded and universities are turning tenure-track positions into adjunct/lecturer positions, paying 1/4 as much with no benefits, and lowering the quality of a college degree in America. *ahem*

So, what y'all are saying is that I should pay as much taxes as Sam Walton's kids? I got two words for you: Fuck That. They have more, they contribute more. To me, $250,000 is rich. I could live a damn good life on that amount of money. I could live a damn good life on $60,000. So you'll excuse me if I don't shed tears over you paying more in taxes, when I'm taking out student loans to pay my rent.

A Universal Health plan would be a godsend for those of us on the lower rungs. I'm lucky in that I can go to the Student Health Center...most of the time. (They've now asked that we limit visits for non-emergency things due to the whole swine flu thing). However, I have a screwed up ankle because I twisted it during a time when I wasn't in school. I had insurance, but I couldn't afford the ER fee to go have it looked at.

I want to do something better for myself. I work my ass off taking classes and teaching classes. (Actually, the exploitation of student labor by universities is a very hot topic in acadaemia right now.) Maybe there are some who don't want to improve themselves. But why punish me because of them?

[Fashion Lad!]

So, what y'all are saying is that I should pay as much taxes as Sam Walton's kids? I got two words for you: Fuck That. They have more, they contribute more. To me, $250,000 is rich. I could live a damn good life on that amount of money. I could live a damn good life on $60,000. So you'll excuse me if I don't shed tears over you paying more in taxes, when I'm taking out student loans to pay my rent.

A Universal Health plan would be a godsend for those of us on the lower rungs. I'm lucky in that I can go to the Student Health Center...most of the time. (They've now asked that we limit visits for non-emergency things due to the whole swine flu thing). However, I have a screwed up ankle because I twisted it during a time when I wasn't in school. I had insurance, but I couldn't afford the ER fee to go have it looked at.

Oh wow. I wasn't talking someone rich pays $1,000 a year like you. I was talking same percentages. Throwing a number out, everyone in the United States pays 15%. No tax loop-holes, no deductions, nothing. Everyone pays 15%. You make $10,000 a year, you pay $1500, Sam Walton's kids make $10,000,000 a year, they pay $1.5M.

Ah, yes.. for many in our generation, Universal Health Care would be a godsend.

Medicare = running a deficit
Medicaid = running a deficit
SSN = running a deficit in 2017

Let's let the government run another entitlement program and trust them not to run it into a deficit.

So, our generation lives well... in 2070, EVERYONE! if they're making the equivalent of $10,000,000 now or $10,000 now, will be paying upwards of 60% in taxes just for the government to pay off the interest that a universal health care would run. Sell future generations to China.

Selfish.

Why not work out the inefficiencies of our current health-care program before we fuck over the future of generations after us? Imagine only being able to take 40% of what you earned? Imagine the value of a dollar devaluing to next to nothing? People want to throw money at an issue that is a black hole for money. It'll only get worse.

[Depot Denizen]

You could always do what the Libertarian anarcho-capitalist 'tards espouse and end all government programs and pray that the free market provides it through the private corperations.

Mmmmm, Shadowrun.

[guywithashovel]

So, what y'all are saying is that I should pay as much taxes as Sam Walton's kids? I got two words for you: Fuck That. They have more, they contribute more. To me, $250,000 is rich. I could live a damn good life on that amount of money. I could live a damn good life on $60,000. So you'll excuse me if I don't shed tears over you paying more in taxes, when I'm taking out student loans to pay my rent.

. . .

I want to do something better for myself. I work my ass off taking classes and teaching classes. (Actually, the exploitation of student labor by universities is a very hot topic in acadaemia right now.) Maybe there are some who don't want to improve themselves. But why punish me because of them?

In the eyes of many conservatives (and by "conservative," I mean the Republican, Rush Limbaugh-listening-to, Ann Coulter-reading, crowd), people like you and me who are currently working our butts off trying to develop our careers and make better lives for ourselves while getting by on tight budgets are simply lazy, worthless leeches on society.

Of course, that isn't true, but it's pretty plain to me that that's how most of them see society.