Lets screw the teachers shall we?

[Lachrymose]

But when you get teachers that does not teach.

Withholding...smartass...comment.....ARRRRGH!!!

[Nyoibo]

Because only kids from the wealthiest families get to go to private schools.

Load of bollocks.

Withholding...smartass...comment.....ARRRRGH!!!

You're not the only one.

[AdminAssistant]

For the most part divine intervention is dismissed as nonsense if it's even mentioned at all, why not mention the major beliefs (and I'm not saying teach it as facts after all Evolution is far from a fact) and then they can say they talked about it.

Google "Evolution Kansas Board of Education" and you'll understand why so many are concerned.

Only the wealthiest huh, and you base this on???

I also grew up in a very rural area and I only had one choice. My dad attended the same elementary and high school that I and my brothers and sisters attended and if my kids lived in the same area they would also be in the same schools. Sometimes geography works against us and we have to make the best of what's available.

I admit, I'm only basing that off personal observation. But I've seen it so much around where I grew up. Most of the time, wealth = better education. This is even true in the public schools, since funding is partially gathered from local property taxes. Yes, there are probably poorer kids in that district will benefit. But I don't think there should be a correlation of any kind between wealth and education.

I was lucky, my school was actually a pretty good school. We had some awful teachers, and quite a few hated me because I was rather independently minded, stubborn, and a smartass. My parents were adamant about my sister and me getting the most out of our educations. They pushed us VERY hard (as in, "if you get a B, you're grounded") because they knew the only way we could go to college would be on scholarship. Most parents, however, aren't that insistent or involved. I was lucky to be able to use my education to catapult me out of there.

What do you think of specialized high schools such as vocational/trade, hardcore academic, arts, etc..?
Do you think all kids should go to college?

There's too much about the voucher system that I don't know, so I'm skipping that question.

I'm not a fan of specialized high schools. I do believe in there being different tracts. My high school had two tracts: a 'college' tract where you take harder academic classes and less home ec and a 'vocational' tract where you take easier classes and more home ec. Seems fair. But, I don't think teens should be picking their careers and training for them just yet. I wasn't sure what I wanted to be until college.

I don't think all kids should go to college. I think going to vo tech and learning a trade (after high school) is an admirable thing. The world needs plumbers, mechanics, and all kinds of people with specialized technical skills. Honestly, there are a lot of kids in University that don't need to be. However, state universities are so desperate for tuition money that they're letting in everyone and their Uncle Ted. I also don't think that federal aid/scholarships should be based at all, or at least very little, on income. That should be based purely on academic achievement. Make good grades, get school paid for. Might encourage some of these kids to actually, I don't know, show up for classes? Naaahhh.

AND, I think there should be more grant money for those like myself who are in the upper tiers of higher education. I went through my entire Bachelor's program on full scholarship. Not one single dime of Pell Grant money. However, when I went to get my Master's....I didn't qualify for Pell Grants, because it was post-graduate work. That is crap.

[Slytovhand]

Firstly... well, it still is only a theory..

Secondly, Nyoibo, you forget.. the others on this board don't live in the best country in the world... they do things differently to us!




Yes, I think it totally sucks what's going on in the OP - especially, as it's been pointed out - doing very little with yourself except learning to drive a bus gives you a much higher (double!) pay than spending years of study, and hours and hours of post work stuff, and all the crap you take while at work with almost no recompense.... no, that just sucks!


I think... where ever you are, how great you think you've got things nailed down, you still need to look around you to see if there's a better way to do things (and by 'you' in this, I'm more referring to governments). There are some great education systems in the world, and some lousy ones... look at the good ones, and try to emulate them!


Tanasi - we've got that thread running...

[Flyndaran]

...
Yes, I think it totally sucks what's going on in the OP - especially, as it's been pointed out - doing very little with yourself except learning to drive a bus gives you a much higher (double!) pay than spending years of study, and hours and hours of post work stuff, and all the crap you take while at work with almost no recompense.... no, that just sucks!

......

That's a myth here in the Portland metro area. Bus drivers are strenuously tested and trained. Not any shmuck with a license gets to drive a bus. Also, the minimum work by teachers does not potentially put hundred of lives in danger just by doing their job. You may disagree but I think wielding a multiton object at cheetah speeds is a bit more dangerous than spouting facts at bored kids.
Yes, pay scale is about the minimum required, not what motivated people may do.

[Nyoibo]

I was just thinking, people seem to think of teachers as babysitters so teachers should get paid the same as babysitters $5 an hour per kid they look after, 40 kids in a class, $200 per hour, that sounds fair.

[Tanasi]

This has the potential to derail the thread, but I'll mention it, anyway.

Evolution is BOTH a theory and a fact. If that sounds contradictory, then it may be because you don't understand what the word "theory" means in scientific terminology. I'm not trying to be patronizing by saying that, either. In science, a theory is a model based on experimentation, observation, and reasoning. It is a body of facts used to explain something.

Here are some other things in science that are "just theories."

Gravity
Atomic Theory
Cell Theory
Electromagnetism
Germ Theory

It is accurate to say that Evolution is a theory, but to say that it is "just a theory" in manner that many ID advocates and creationists say is misleading.

I understand perfectly well what Theory means. What many believe as fact can still be explained in some ways as something else. Is it not possible in some infantesimal way that what's thought to be fossils are just incredibly remarks coincidents??? If you say no then prove it beyond a reasonable doubt if not they why the heartburn? What I'm saying is some folks are so arrogant that they say evolution is absolute fact when in reality they just making wild ass guesses based upon observation. Now before you have a stroke I'm not a thumper but I observe at my kid's school and they teach both creationism(s) and evolution. They present most sides then let the kids decide. They are tested upon not what they believe but the material presented.
As far as gravity goes I've found out the hard way that I'm allergic to it.

Google "Evolution Kansas Board of Education" and you'll understand why so many are concerned.

I don't doubt that there are plenty of thumpers out there that are stirring the pot just because they can. To take the wind out of their sales teach both creationism and evolution. Tell they kids what the leading minds are thinking and go from there.

I admit, I'm only basing that off personal observation. But I've seen it so much around where I grew up. Most of the time, wealth = better education. This is even true in the public schools, since funding is partially gathered from local property taxes. Yes, there are probably poorer kids in that district will benefit. But I don't think there should be a correlation of any kind between wealth and education.

I was lucky, my school was actually a pretty good school. We had some awful teachers, and quite a few hated me because I was rather independently minded, stubborn, and a smartass. My parents were adamant about my sister and me getting the most out of our educations. They pushed us VERY hard (as in, "if you get a B, you're grounded") because they knew the only way we could go to college would be on scholarship. Most parents, however, aren't that insistent or involved. I was lucky to be able to use my education to catapult me out of there.

The high school I attended and graduated from I thought was a good school and it was when only compaired to the other high schools in the county. Outside the county not so much. Since my parents were the single largest private land owners in the adjoining county I could have gone to school there but my parents decided that from observing some cousins that lived in that county the schools didn't appear be any better. They later learned that those cousins weren't too bright. Anyways my parents weren't highly educated my mom was allowed to go through 8th and then had to quit to go to work. My dad graduated high school but that pesky WWII got in the way off to war he went. They knew that education would be the one thing that would get their children the biggest leg up so they made sure we went everyday and they helped us with what they could and tried to get us help on everything else. They were very much involved, just as I'm very much involved with my kids education. My kids don't act up in school because they know I'll bealong to bust ass at later time. They do their school work before even asking to do anything else because they know the answer will be no. I'm not bragging but my youngest skipped from 4th to 6th last year and this year went to 9th. While my other kids have so far gone along the traditional way and they're probably not as smart as their little sister, they're everyone to the last smart and can legitimately do their work. Our oldest just graduated from vet school this past spring. #2 will graduate from architech school next spring, #3 is 2nd year at Canoe U. #4 10th with straight As. #5 college prep for a freshman.
Education is very much what you make of it and parents putting a definite emphasis on it certainly helps.
The above being said I know of several "rich" kids that are certainly pretty dang dumb.

There's too much about the voucher system that I don't know, so I'm skipping that question.

I'm not a fan of specialized high schools. I do believe in there being different tracts. My high school had two tracts: a 'college' tract where you take harder academic classes and less home ec and a 'vocational' tract where you take easier classes and more home ec. Seems fair. But, I don't think teens should be picking their careers and training for them just yet. I wasn't sure what I wanted to be until college.

I don't think all kids should go to college. I think going to vo tech and learning a trade (after high school) is an admirable thing. The world needs plumbers, mechanics, and all kinds of people with specialized technical skills. Honestly, there are a lot of kids in University that don't need to be. However, state universities are so desperate for tuition money that they're letting in everyone and their Uncle Ted. I also don't think that federal aid/scholarships should be based at all, or at least very little, on income. That should be based purely on academic achievement. Make good grades, get school paid for. Might encourage some of these kids to actually, I don't know, show up for classes? Naaahhh.

AND, I think there should be more grant money for those like myself who are in the upper tiers of higher education. I went through my entire Bachelor's program on full scholarship. Not one single dime of Pell Grant money. However, when I went to get my Master's....I didn't qualify for Pell Grants, because it was post-graduate work. That is crap.

Let's define a Voucher system for conversation purposes and this will definitly tie in the OP.
The county in which we all attended school and where our children attend spends $5000 per student. This is everything from books, teacher salary, admin costs, building costs, buses, etc.
Would you support a program that gave the parents/guardians a voucher for $5k for each child/student to use toward attending a school of their choice in that county??? The voucher would be good for either public or private schools. It would be up to the principal/admin to determine wages and working conditions.
Personally I would support such a program because it gives the parents and kids an actual choice. It encourages schools to improve their facuality and staff, improve facilities, removes most politics and I think moral would improve for the majority because they're can be where they want to be.
I do see some negatives particularly with transportation, some schools would try to pick and choose, and poor performing schools would be stuck with short funds.

[guywithashovel]

I understand perfectly well what Theory means. What many believe as fact can still be explained in some ways as something else. Is it not possible in some infantesimal way that what's thought to be fossils are just incredibly remarks coincidents??? If you say no then prove it beyond a reasonable doubt if not they why the heartburn? What I'm saying is some folks are so arrogant that they say evolution is absolute fact when in reality they just making wild ass guesses based upon observation. Now before you have a stroke I'm not a thumper but I observe at my kid's school and they teach both creationism(s) and evolution. They present most sides then let the kids decide. They are tested upon not what they believe but the material presented.
As far as gravity goes I've found out the hard way that I'm allergic to it.

It's not just the fossil record that validates evolution, however the fossil record is still very strong evidence. Evolution has also been proven though genetic testing, which has shown common ancestry, and the genetic tests they run work the same way that paternity tests do. Now, as for the fossil record, the fossils have all been confirmed through several methods of radioactive dating, all of which have been proven to be very accurate reliable.

I'm not going to have a stroke, but teaching creationism (or ID) alongside the Theory of Evolution is like teaching astrology alongside astronomy and then letting the kids decide. There are still things we don't know about evolution, but that doesn't invalidate the theory. Likewise, there are things we don't know about bacteria, but that doesn't negate the Germ Theory of Disease.

And now the mods are going to yell at me for derailing the thread.

[Talon]

I hate to threadjack, but...

I understand perfectly well what Theory means.

Apparently you don't, given what you've said.

What I'm saying is some folks are so arrogant that they say evolution is absolute fact when in reality they just making wild ass guesses based upon observation.

There's a word for that. What was it again... oh that's right. It's called the scientific method. It's not "wild guesses" when they are fortified by evidence, and the observations can be reproduced in a controlled environment.

...but I observe at my kid's school and they teach both creationism(s) and evolution. They present most sides then let the kids decide.

Then your school did your kids a disservice. The Theory of Evolution has literally hundreds of man-hours worth of research to back it up. Everything we have discovered about genetics since the time of Darwin validates his theory.

What proof does Creationism have? Absolutely NOTHING.

Of course there are flaws in ToE, as there are in Atomic Theory, and Gravitational Theory. But that does not constitute proof of Creation. Lack of proof is not proof.

They are tested upon not what they believe but the material presented.

I'd sure like to know what material they produce in support of Creationism. Irreducible Complexity of life? Sorry that was debunked in the Dover trial.

To take the wind out of their sales teach both creationism and evolution. Tell they kids what the leading minds are thinking and go from there.

Fallacy of false equivalence. Sorry to sound like a broken record, but I say again, creationism has no proof whatsoever. The "controversy" is completely manufactured, as there is no such controversy in the scientific community. Teaching creationism as if it had even remotely equivalent merit as Evolution amounts to teaching ignorance.

If anyone wants to educate themselves, I strongly recommend watching the youtube series Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism, by AronRa aka the "Texan Tank". It's deliciously informative and entertaining. Sometimes he talks a bit fast though.

As far as gravity goes I've found out the hard way that I'm allergic to it.

I agree, that darn gravity really gets me down

[AdminAssistant]

Y'know, in my little po-dunk high school, the science teacher was also a preacher. You know what he said on the theory of the creation of the universe? "I'm going to teach you the Theory of Evolution. It's only a theory. There is another side to the argument, and if you want to hear that, come see me on Sunday morning." Plain as that. Religion doesn't belong in Science class.

[fireheart17]

I was just thinking, people seem to think of teachers as babysitters so teachers should get paid the same as babysitters $5 an hour per kid they look after, 40 kids in a class, $200 per hour, that sounds fair.

Sounds familiar to all the comments on AdelaideNow about the teacher strikes.

(the public school teachers have been in a huge debate since about May last year over their pay rises. It was originally meant to be 21% over three years, the government was offering less than half of that, now it's dropped down to 15% for teachers and 11% for principals and the like but they're STILL negotiating.)

The main arguments on the adelaidenow comments fall into two categories.

-Those that know squat about teaching and think they're only in it for the money. (the new agreement for teachers would include cutting funding for support staff, larger class sizes etc.)
-Those that know a heap about teaching or teach themselves and are happily backing themselves up.

[Nyoibo]

The adelaide situation I know fair bit about, a good frind of mine is a teacher, he makes a reasonable ammount, but the ammount of time that he works is pretty high too.

[Akasa]

I have been offline for a few days. I was really hoping to come back to this thread and have everyone reallise that I am upset on what they are doing to teachers here, and not mean the title of the thread I used. I am relieved to find this is so.
I have a huge soft spot for teachers. My grandmother who was like a second mother to me was a teacher for children with learning disabilities, my mother taught chemistry in college as she was working on her masters and has done some home schooling with a couple of my siblings, and my best friend is a special ed teacher. Since teachers are not on contract atm, she quit and moved back to Texas where they treat their teachers better than here.
I'll really miss her, but its the best thing for her.

[Boozy]

Looks like we've gotten back on track, but nevertheless: If anyone wants to discuss evolution vs. creationism, there are at least two other threads that I know of that deal with that issue. Let's keep this one on topic.

[Slytovhand]

Looks like we've gotten back on track, but nevertheless: If anyone wants to discuss evolution vs. creationism, there are at least two other threads that I know of that deal with that issue. Let's keep this one on topic.

But, Boozy, that's what this thread has evolved into...

(ok, de-volved into...)

I like the idea of paying teachers the same as babysitters.... does that mean they get to invite their boy/girl-friend over and send the kids to bed early??

Besides, babysitters don't have to prepare a hell of a lot before class, nor do they need to mark how the kids went once they've gone home... or set up tests for them... or study to make sure they know what they're about to present...