Illegal immigration...

[Boozy]

It isn't even just Americans who prefer to choose to do the better of two things. It is human nature to strive for the higher pay, the best working conditions, the company that offers the best benefits, etc. Human nature is programed to go for the best of everything when possible.

Which is why when you live in a country that offers no jobs whatsoever, and your family is starving, and the state police are possibly harassing you for speaking out against your corrupt government, and you fear for your life and the lives of your family, you brave the sometimes treacherous journey to America where picking berries in a field, while a difficult job and low-paying by American standards, will provide you with food and shelter and relative safety.

There are few illegal immigrants who, when faced between living illegally in America and living with fear and despair in their native countries, will choose the latter. You are right - its human nature.

You've implied that these migrant workers "complain" - I suspect they actually just keep their heads down.

Let's worry less about those who come here illegally, who are doing exactly what we would all do in their situations, and focus on what America can do to improve the conditions in other countries. America is the richest nation in the world, and yet gives less as a percentage of their GNP for foreign aid than any other industrialized country in the world. And US foreign and economic policy is largely to blame for these conditions to begin with.

[Puckishone]

Point the Firste:

It is human nature to strive for the higher pay, the best working conditions, the company that offers the best benefits, etc. Human nature is programed to go for the best of everything when possible.

When I worked in HR, I can't tell you how many times we saw applicants who, quite seriously, were only applying because of the pay (the company was the highest-paying in the area for janitorial work). They wanted the pay but balked at shift work (which was mandatory, since this was in a hospital). They wanted the pay but turned their noses up at having to clean up patient-care areas (again, big sign on the front door with "HOSPITAL" in big letters). They wanted the pay and hoped to do as little work as possible in the process. And this included whites, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, women, men, young and old: they came for the money, pure and simple. So in my opinion I'd say that the nature of humans is to get the most bang for the least buck.

Pointe the Seconde:

Just because someone earns $X and not $Y is not necessarily an indicator of the complexity of the work or a reflection of the person's skills...I know a number of scientists who earn less than I do (as a CSR) and yet are highly educated and skilled individuals. Geographical and market differences have a lot to do with this, as does the profession and industry involved.

Ye Olde Conclusion:

My sympathy for illegal immigrant workers eroded greatly when the first rally promoting their "rights" marched through our downtown area during rush hour. To break the law by coming to any country illegally and then have the gall to demand your rights is just beyond the pale, IMO.

[rahmota]

First off: I'll agree with Puck about the "rights marches" I look at those and all I see is an easy pickings for INS. Just get the big net and one stop shopping. If you are here illegally keep your mouth shut and dont broadcast it by causing a ruckus marching down mainstreet at high noon. It dont work in the real world just in the movies. Although it does show how far american society has come in relation to other countries in that the big net is generally not used.

And now Fuzzy:

no one is forcing them to work there. They CAN go and find another higher-paying job.

You are again operating under the assumption that 1: There are other jobs available to these people in their area. 2: That if there is other jobs available being illegals they cannot always work these jobs so therefore the "available" jobs really are not as available as first look thought. and 3: No one is forcing them to work there. By limiting the availability of work permits, using INS as a threat, or otherwise limiting the options one has it may not be the same as forcing someone at gunpoint but a lack of options is still forcing someone to take the only options available.

AFP: Maybe it is regional. I dont know. Ohio is far enough from the mexican border I guess and we have enough of our own surplus workers that we dont use migrants. Also most farms in Ohio are family owned and not big company farms so the ones who work the farm are usuaally the family members and any friends or neighbors/associates who need work.

[AFPheonix]

do something better for more money, do you really think I would turn it down for a lower-paying one? No one is forcing those workers to stay in that particular job. They can go and apply for whatever they choose. If they are not qualified to do better work, then that is their problem,


If someone works in a berryfield for several years, and they are getting paid virtually nothing, no one is forcing them to work there. They CAN go and find another higher-paying job. They have NO reason to complain about the hard job they have, when they volunteered to do it.

Again, I think you missed my point. I'm not saying that migrant workers are bitching that they aren't moving up the ladder (although there are several that I know that started out as berry pickers, jumped at the chance for citizenship the last time amnesty was offered back in the early 90's, and now run their own business), I'm saying that complaining about migrants taking American jobs is a cop out. They're not really taking any jobs that a white american would touch. However, the jobs that they are doing are entirely necessary not only for local economy, but also for the national one as well.

And yes Puck, I agree with you that it was idiotic of those marchers to wave Mexican flags in the flipping US, wanting rights that they aren't privy to, as they are not citizens.
I did notice that there really weren't any asians out there, though. Chinese migrants know to keep out of the spotlight, I suppose.

[powerboy]

First off: I'll agree with Puck about the "rights marches" I look at those and all I see is an easy pickings for INS. Just get the big net and one stop shopping. If you are here illegally keep your mouth shut and don't broadcast it by causing a ruckus marching down main street at high noon. It don't work in the real world just in the movies. Although it does show how far American society has come in relation to other countries in that the big net is generally not used.

I agree with you on that. The city that I am in, will higher the illegals over the legals.

Companies want to have all the money that they can. So there fore, they will pay as little as they can.

[CancelMyService]

Firstly, I think the OP was right when she (hope I got the gender right) said that immigration is the new codeword for racists. Not that everyone who has an issue with it is racist, but it certainly has allowed racist minded people to come out of the woodwork and speak freely as long as they make sure they use the word "illegals" instead of blacks/hispanics/etc.

Secondly, the companies that hire the illegal immigrants by and large get a pass unless they get caught doing something stupid, like when Verizon hired illegals to run their fiber optic cables around the Pittsburgh area and then they got caught driving a piece of shit truck with like 7 dudes inside. While people go back and forth trying to crucify immigrants, the companies who hire them laugh all the way to the bank.

Thirdly, it's funny to see so many people in this country being all "RAHHH IMMIGRANTS!!" since unless you're Native American, you come from immigrants. Not all of them legal. Hell, sometimes the legal ones got shit on too. My family experienced the joy of businesses posting NO IRISH NEED APPLY signs, which is ironic considering the current debate.

[Rapscallion]

Thirdly, it's funny to see so many people in this country being all "RAHHH IMMIGRANTS!!" since unless you're Native American, you come from immigrants.

There's some thought that the Native Americans originally came from Mongolia over the ice bridge to Alaska. Several similarities exist, such as lack of facial hair etc.

I guess we're all immigrants from somewhere. When seems to be the important part.

Rapscallion

[Nightwolf]

I really don't think this has a lot to do with skin color as much as it does other issues. Like many mentioned in previous posts. Like the example of companies hiring these workers over legal US citizens to save money. Thats just a whole level of unethical crap I just can't stand.

I personally have a major issue with illegals when they come over, make no attempt at becoming a citizen, and then commit crimes thinking they have a "right" to our system when they aren't even a citizen. THATS where my major beef is.

[CancelMyService]

Skin color has a lot to do with it since a vast majority of the people upset at immigrants seem to only focus on Hispanic ones. When someone rails against "illegals" they aren't usually talking about the Asian lady at the nail salon who may or may not have done all the paperwork to be here legally.

[AFPheonix]

We get more illegal immigrants from Canada yearly than we do from the countries south of us. Oddly, I've never heard one peep about building a wall along our northern border before....

[Boozy]

We get more illegal immigrants from Canada yearly than we do from the countries south of us. Oddly, I've never heard one peep about building a wall along our northern border before....

Hee hee. My (Canadian) uncle was an illegal immigrant in the US for a while. He's a high-ranking executive with a major corporation...due to government bureaucracy, it took so long getting his work visa in order that he ended up living as an "illegal" in Detroit for a year and a half.

We had a lot of fun at his expense over that one.

[Nightwolf]

Skin color has a lot to do with it since a vast majority of the people upset at immigrants seem to only focus on Hispanic ones.

I assume this is because of the vast majority of political and media coverage on this. I agree that we don't hear enough about every illiegal in this country from other areas, but could it be that the biggest concentration of offenders is coming from the same area?

I could actually see the same argument coming from anywhere if it was as big of a case. Remember the big deal with Cuba and all the immigrants floating over on boats? I'd like to think that really wasn't color either. I really do think it's where the biggest concentration is coming from at present time. But of course, this is all just my opinion formed by what i'm fed through the bullcrap machine that is known as "the media"

[CancelMyService]

Well the Cuba stuff was more an offshoot of the Cold War and "OMG COMMIEZ~!" than immigration and potential racism (although that may have been an added bonus for some).

I'd be more willing to believe the current fuss is not racially biased if it wasn't for the fact that there are two countries bordering the US, and we want to build walls and have crazies with guns patrol the one that 1) Is shorter 2) Hasn't been a known entry point for terrorists 3) Has brown people on the other side.

[blas87]

I think the whole point is that my great and great-great grandparents came to this country to Ellis Island in the early 1900s LEGALLY. They traveled to find farming type jobs (yes, grunt work). But they flourished.

I am not being racist, I am just merely pointing out that during the enormous European immigration of the early 1900s, you didn't see looters and "illegal alien pride" parades and the ridiculous things you see illegal immigrants doing these days.

It's a whole other discussion in itself, but if any of the European immigrants committed a murder or other crime of any sort, he or she would do the proper time. There was no choice of going back.

[Boozy]

I am not being racist, I am just merely pointing out that during the enormous European immigration of the early 1900s, you didn't see looters and "illegal alien pride" parades and the ridiculous things you see illegal immigrants doing these days.

Those days saw the formation of Irish and Italian gangs and the beginnings of organized crime.

Most Irish and Italian immigrants didn't want to become criminals in their new homeland, but racism often prevented them from getting jobs.