Pro-Choice Christians

[Fashion Lad!]

FashionLad, I find it amusing that you're all against government-run health plans and want less government, and yet you want the government to dictate what happens to me if I get pregnant? And I think slippery slope does apply here, because if abortion is made illegal, you can bet your ass the "moral majority" will be pushing to ban the morning-after pill, and then birth control.

I'd like to point out that I didn't say I was for or against abortion. I'm not for telling anyone to do with their bodies. That was an assumption you made up on your own.

[Akasa]

I'm one of those pro-choice Christians. I usually keep quiet about it around other Christians, but really I feel its nobodies business what others do with their bodies. I'm so sick of the pro-lifers' attitude that the baby is more important than the mother, and don't take into account the quality of life the mother, and thus child would have if some of these pregnancies weren't terminated.
Make a raped woman carry the child full term? Only men, and women who have never been raped would dare that one. I can imagine what it would be like to have to carry a rapist's spawn for 9 mos and then have to care for it the rest of my life. Talk about a child that is hated.
Adoption? Sure torture the poor woman for 9 mos and then she can give it up for adoption!
BAH!
Don't try to tell me it wouldn't be torture either.

In the case of the woman who got killed and so the murder was charged w/ 2 murders, and the fetus was deemed more important, well that just shows how people in general think of women. As baby factories. We're only good for making babies. God help us if we don't want children!

[Nyoibo]

well that just shows how people in general think of women. As baby factories. We're only good for making babies. God help us if we don't want children!

You're forgetting making pie and sammiches. *runs and hides from the horde of angry women.

[Lace Neil Singer]

There's also the fact that forcing a woman to carry a child and give birth is essentially taking away all control she has over her own body. Strange; rape is also doing exactly that.

There's also several cases of mothers killing their own children, selling their children into prostitution, or of standing back and allowing their boyfs or husbands to beat or kill their children. Still think that all women should be made to carry and birth kids? Better that a fetus is vaccumed out of the womb rather than it grows up to become a child; only to be later suffocated and hidden in a dustbin.

[DesignFox]

I haven't really responded to this thread yet, because I'm still working on an answer, but I think FashionLad brings up a good point.

He's not saying one way or the other what women should or should not do with their bodies.

He's asking a very valid question. WHY is it murder if the fetus is killed accidentally or as the result of another crime, and why is it abortion (and therefore NOT murder) otherwise?

The best I can come up with at the moment is that abortion involves the woman making a choice. She is choosing to carry that fetus to term as a baby, or not.

In the case of the woman being beaten and losing her fetus before it can become a baby takes all choice away from the mother. She wanted to carry that fetus to term, and that choice was taken from her as a direct result of someone else's actions.

In my opinion, the rights of a fetus should never trump the rights of a woman. HOWEVER, I could see a prosecuter or a judge using a pregnancy or the termination thereof to garner more sympathy for a victim and seek harsher punishment for a criminal.

I mean, the stigma attached to attacking a pregnant woman is pretty strong! The idea that someone wanted to have a child, and that choice was forcibly denied is really rotten.

Especially if a woman is far along. I mean, she's WORKING to bring that baby into the world, especially after a certain point. As far as I understand it, for many women pregnancy is no walk in the park. I'd be pretty fucking pissed to be, say 7 or 8 months along, and some douchwaffle stabs me in the uterus and kills my unborn child. At that point, I absolutely would consider that murder- because at that point, the chances are really good that that fetus will survive and become a baby. At that point, for most people, the decision has been made- abortion is no longer a consideration.

That's the best my sleep deprived and work fogged mind can come up with for now.

[guywithashovel]

Make a raped woman carry the child full term? Only men, and women who have never been raped would dare that one. I can imagine what it would be like to have to carry a rapist's spawn for 9 mos and then have to care for it the rest of my life. Talk about a child that is hated.
Adoption? Sure torture the poor woman for 9 mos and then she can give it up for adoption!
BAH!
Don't try to tell me it wouldn't be torture either.

If the rape issue comes up in an abortion discussion, they'll usually do one of two things.

1. They'll say something like "Oh, but it's not the baby's fault that the mother got raped. She shouldn't take out her anger on the fetus." (I've actually heard this before)

2. They'll start making excuses for the rapist. They'll say that it happened because the woman was dressed in revealing clothes or because she was out late at night or something stupid like that.

[Lace Neil Singer]

My response to that is firstly that it doesn't matter if a woman is a nun or a prostitute, she doesn't deserve to be raped. Second, men get raped, too. Are they wearing revealing clothes too and asking for it? For some reason, a lot of people don't seem aware of this fact and won't give an answer to my question. And yes, I'm aware this isn't to do with the pregnancy thing; it's just something that the other side don't consider.

Also, children as young as nine years old have been raped and made pregnant. Should they be made to carry to term, even tho it could put both their life and that of the fetus at risk?

[BlaqueKatt]

I've heard it said that "there are no such things as pro-choice Christians."

nope there is an entire coalition of them* apparently(did a search after seeing a bumper sticker on my merry jaunt to procure liquid caffeine)

*religious coalition for reproductive rights

[RecoveringKinkoid]

It's easy: while I think that abortion is wrong and should only be used in cases where the mother would suffer significant physical or emotional harm from giving birth, I understand that not everybody shares this view, and I don't think it's fair for the government to force my beliefs on everyone else. Thus, I'm both Christian and pro-choice.

This right here.

I'm a Christian. I'm a foulmouthed, hard drinking, bad tempered one, but there you go. I never said I was perfect. I am pro choice for the above reason.

Would I ever have an abortion? I'd like to say no, but then, I have no idea of the horrors some women and their families have to face. Never say never, you never know what might happen.

Here's the thing: anti abortion laws tend to be pretty strongly attached to morality and/or Christian values. And you cannot legislate morality. And you CANNOT base the laws of a free country on nothing more than religious beliefs...and I must stand by that even when it's supposedly my religious beliefs. It's not right because not everyone shares that, and we are not supposed to be forcing our beliefs on others.

[BlaqueKatt]

Make a raped woman carry the child full term? Only men, and women who have never been raped would dare that one. I can imagine what it would be like to have to carry a rapist's spawn for 9 mos and then have to care for it the rest of my life. Talk about a child that is hated.
Adoption? Sure torture the poor woman for 9 mos and then she can give it up for adoption!
BAH!
Don't try to tell me it wouldn't be torture either.

all I'll say to this is if forced yes-but not all rape victims choose to abort either
for some common myths on sexual assault/incest and rape resulting in pregnancy I direct you to Dr. Sandra Mahkorn's report-

It is often common for even well-meaning, educated and sympathetic individuals to stereotype and categorize the reactions and responses of the rape victim. Often non-victims project themselves into the situation and assume that a sexual assault victim's reaction or a pregnant rape victim's responses will be similar to those they imagine for themselves. These unfortunate stereotypes don't help the victim. In my experience as a counselor of sexual assault victims and as a physician, a victim's reactions, attitudes and responses to the assault are almost as numerous as the victims themselves.

[Amethyst Hunter]

WHY is it murder if the fetus is killed accidentally or as the result of another crime, and why is it abortion (and therefore NOT murder) otherwise?

The best I can come up with at the moment is that abortion involves the woman making a choice. She is choosing to carry that fetus to term as a baby, or not.

In the case of the woman being beaten and losing her fetus before it can become a baby takes all choice away from the mother. She wanted to carry that fetus to term, and that choice was taken from her as a direct result of someone else's actions.

This exactly. The law is based on the assumption that the pregnancy was *wanted*, and as was mentioned, it can be a very useful tool for prosecutors seeking to lock up criminals.

On the down side, it is also a tool for anti-choicers to enact anti-choice legislation that does nothing to solve the original problem and everything to make it harder on the very women they claim to want to "help."

Win some, lose some...

the rights of a fetus should never trump the rights of a woman.

Also this.

[HYHYBT]

Throw me in as a pro-choice Christian as well. Though I wouldn't be if I believed that life definitely begins at the instant of conception. The thing is, there simply *isn't* an obvious point where one moment it's nothing and the next it's a baby. An analogy that works for me, though I heard it as an argument for the other side, is to baking a cake. (You've heard of having "a bun in the oven," haven't you?) What you mix up and pour into the pan is not a cake; what you take out when the timer goes off *is* a cake. What is it in the hour or two between? To me, life is the same way; if it were really up to me I'd say it should be very easy to get an abortion for any reason or none at all early on, and nearly impossible by the last month, but it isn't up to me, I don't have the knowledge to make such a decision in any kind of informed way (and I don't believe anyone does, or even *can*, have it) and am glad never to have to make such a painful decision myself.

[Nyoibo]

I consider it to be a life when it can survive on its own and is no longer just a parasite.

Of course there are some 20+ years olds who fit that description too.

[crashhelmet]

The law everyone keeps mentioning is called "The Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004" aka "Laci and Conner's Law." It was created after Scott Pederson murdered his pregnant wife Laci and dumped her body into the San Francisco Bay. Conner was the name the baby was to have. most states have their own "Feticide" laws, but were rarely ever enforced until this was passed.

Like others have pointed out, I find this to be conflicting with the current laws that allow abortions. It's my belief that this was signed into law as a stepping stone to anti-abortion laws. While I may be Pro-Life and agree with the concept of this law, I don't like this tactic and I'm surprised that it hasn't been used to witch hunt and lock up abortion doctors.

CH

[Kimmik]

I am christian and I am also pro-choice....

To me an abortion is one of the worst thing that someone could do... I could never do something like that. But I am also a firm believer in the old adage judge not least ye be judged. I can only make choices for me... I can not like something... but nothing gives me the right to judge someone else...

I hope that made sense...