US Involvement in World War II

[mikoyan29]

Not sure where to put this but since one of the moderators said not to pollute the Glenn Beck thread with World War II, I'll start a new thread.

I think the US would have eventually been in the war had the Japanese not bombed Pearl Harbor. We were inching towards the war in Europe as it was. In October of 1941 (or September), the Reuben James was torpedoed by a German U-boat commanded by Erich Topp (one of the top German aces). Prior to date, a US Destroyer depth charged and drove off a U-boat. US Destroyers were escorting convoys destined for Britain up until Pearl Harbor (and after obviously). Not to mention, Germany was starting to get fed up with our "neutrality". So I'd venture to guess that if Pearl Harbor had not been bombed, we probably would have been in the War by September of 1942 (if not sooner).

As for the end of the war, a big factor was the atomic bombs. But probably next on the list was the Soviets entering the war and the Japanese were afraid what would happen to the Emperor had the Soviets occupied Japan (given Communist attitudes towards nobility). They were starting to make overtures towards peace prior to the dropping of the bombs but they wanted the condition that we would keep the Emperor intact (which we did sort of).

[protege]

Of course, let's not forget that Soviets switched sides in 1941--Operation Barbarossa, anyone? Also, before 1941, the Germans and Soviets were attempting to split Northern and Eastern Europe into German and Soviet-influenced spheres, the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. Not helping matters, was the Soviet Unions' annexation of Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia, along with part of Finland, etc. Dividing line between the two realms would have been Poland.

Had Pearl Harbor not been bombed, I'm sure we would have entered the war sooner or later. Mexico entered the war soon after one of their ships was sunk, so with us, it would have probably been a matter of time...

[Greenday]

Would it have been too late though?

[elsporko]

It would have taken alot to get Americans to support the war. Isolationism was extremely popular and many thought we should solve the problems at home before helping other countries. Plus alot of Americans weren't happy the first time we went to war in Euroupe and the results.

[mikoyan29]

It would have taken alot to get Americans to support the war. Isolationism was extremely popular and many thought we should solve the problems at home before helping other countries. Plus alot of Americans weren't happy the first time we went to war in Euroupe and the results.

That was going to be my next point. IF we had gotten in the war that way, it probably would have been a half assed effort because it wouldn't have had nearly the amount of support otherwise. Alot of people looked up the Reuben James as getting what was coming to it because it wasn't where it hsouldn't have been.

[Tanasi]

A lot of folks wanted us to throw in with Germany during WWII, with Joe Kennedy and Charles Lindberg being some of the prominent ones.

I really like alternate-reality novels and Harry Turtledove is the king of what-ifs. A lot of folks don't know that Newt Gingrich and a co-writter have also put out several ar novels. Two specifically deal with the end of WWII and if we had to have invade Japan. Very interesting and IMO good reads.
He also has a trilogy dealing the War of Northern Agression specifically the Battle of Gettysburg and subsiquent battles. I won't ruin them for you but I wasn't too impressed with his outcome.

Lots of nations contributed some more than othes and I don't think any should be looked over. I know my Dad had a lot of respect for the diggers and the kiwis and fought along side them early in the war in New Guinea.
I served with some diggers in RVN during 72/73. Some real loud mouthed fellows but they could back up all their brags and really took the fight to whom ever came looking as did the ROK army.

[Gravekeeper]

Two specifically deal with the end of WWII and if we had to have invade Japan. Very interesting and IMO good reads.

Oh man, the plan they had to actually do that was pretty....yeah. Throw the rest of the a-bombs they had at the time at Japan. Then march Allied troops into the fallout after waiting a mere 48 hours.

Can you imagine the clusterfuck that would have turned into?

[Hobbs]

Oh man, the plan they had to actually do that was pretty....yeah. Throw the rest of the a-bombs they had at the time at Japan. Then march Allied troops into the fallout after waiting a mere 48 hours.

Can you imagine the clusterfuck that would have turned into?

From what I've studied, that wasn't the actual strategy of Operation Downfall.

[Gravekeeper]

From what I've studied, that wasn't the actual strategy of Operation Downfall.

Specifically, it was Operation Olympic, which was part of Downfall. They estimated they'd have about 7 more nukes ready to go to bomb Japanese defenses if need be and advised to wait at least 48 hours before entering the fallout areas.

Which if course would have been disastrous for the troops involved.

[Tanasi]

I believe the plan was to continue to bomb cities and troop and supply concentrations. MacAuthor's plan was to first invade Kyushu and try to concentrate the Japanese forces there and use the A-bombs on their concentrated formations. After that battle had pretty much been decided the Honshu to the east of Toyoko would be next, hoping the Japanese Army was pretty much out of the fight. A lot of folks don't know was Japan still had a few million troops in China/Korea area but not much of a way to get them back.

[daleduke17]

It would have taken alot to get Americans to support the war. Isolationism was extremely popular and many thought we should solve the problems at home before helping other countries. Plus alot of Americans weren't happy the first time we went to war in Euroupe and the results.

Holy Shit, the US actually thought about themselves at one time? We need more of this thinking in this day and age.

[elsporko]

Its pretty hard to be isolationist anymore. We are too involved in the world economy to cut off ties with everybody else.

[MaseMan]

An invasion of Japan would have been incredibly brutal. Japanese civilians would have been either attacking the Allied troops with crude weapons, or committing suicide en masse. It would have been more destructive and demoralizing than the use of the two atomic bombs.

[protege]

I agree with that. If the Allies had actually invaded Japan...the outcome would have been much worse. At that time, the Japanese were willing to fight to the death, with whatever weapons they could find--Kamikaze pilots, anyone? Also, such fighting would have dragged on much longer. The nukes were more destructive from a casualty standpoint, but I do think more lives were saved. Consider this too--ever since that point, nobody...has had the balls to open the nuclear genie's bottle again. Threats have been made, but not acted upon.

[draggar]

The US was already involved in WWII before Pearl Harbor - the US had sent troops to the UK to help with training and other support.

I feel the US would have eventually been pulled in. Japan was quickly expanding in the Pacific and the UK was having a hard time standing their ground.

But - the bombing of Pearl Harbor made a true world war. Japan does a "sneak attack" (highly dis-honorable in their eyes) since the declaration wasn't delivered on time (the US & Japan were still in "non-aggression" talks at the time).

After the attack, the US declared war on Japan. Still not a World war.

Then, well over a dozen other nations declared war against each other - *this* is the true chaos of a world war. (Germany and Itlay declared war against the USA a few days later) It is a record that I hope will never be broken. It's hard to find the full and actual list but we have a WW2 documentary and they went though the actual timeline (down to the minute) of each declaration.

Here's a good timeline:
http://worldatwar.net/timeline/other...macy39-45.html

Japan bombung the USA got the USA into the war before it was too late. If the UK had fallen then the Axis powers could have easily taken over Ireland, Iceland, and Greenland giving them a silid presence in North America. (They probabaly could have done this withinb a week or two).