Concealed Carry on Campus

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Actually, "my side" sees deadly weapons as largely unnecessary. I'm a pacifist, and I long for a world where citizens don't need to arm themselves. As has been said, other countries have banned firearms rather effectively. The vast majority of this country is safe. To feel the need for a firearm is paranoia at best.

And you suppose correctly. But I don't have control over those areas. I'm supposed to have some measure of control in my classroom.

P.S. Guns don't *save* lives. If you take out an armed assailant, you have taken a life as a means to prevent further loss. Penicillin saves lives. Guns are a preventive.

Well bully for you in your comparatively safe area and situation. The fact of that matter is that there's more than enough reason for some to carry a weapon in order to protect themselves. You're still stuck on us needing to prove we need them, but that's not how if works. Freedom means that you can do anything you want regardless of it's necessity as long as it doesn't pose a significant threat to others.

I don't really care how well guns have been banned in countries where there weren't many guns to begin with, much less any demand for them or all that much crime at all. Over here we do have crime, and more than enough of the criminals have guns or are otherwise armed. I'd rather the victims have the means to fight back. Besides which, other countries have banned guns quite unsuccessfully (in Japan the criminal without a gun, has a knife and will stab you till you quit squirming... jolly good luck stopping them!).

And the restaurant owners and movie theater owners also thought they had the right to trump others' right to self defense, but they're wrong, too.

So I guess SWAT teams are bursting into crack houses and confronting hostile shooters with penicillin. Guns are a tool, nothing more. Used by good people to save lives that bad people were going to take. It's all in the net result.

[BlaqueKatt]

I don't want them to overreact to or worsen a situation. I don't want them to miss and shoot me.

so if you have someone gunning down students you'd rather wait the 15-20 minutes for the cops...and have the shooter possibly take out you and your students while you(and others) watch helplessly?

hmm the students at the appalachian school of law-or the principal that stopped a massacre at Pearl High School would like a word with you...seems back in 2002 armed resistance to a school shooter prevented a vigingia tech style massacre-but don't let real world situations and facts affect you-ZOMG! guns are teh ebil!


and all the arguments you have are addressed here-yes every single one has already been shot down(no pun intended) with facts and statistics to back them up-do you have anything to back up your arguments other than emotion? Didn't think so-read the article

[Wingates_Hellsing]

and all the arguments you have are addressed here-yes every single one has already been shot down(no pun intended) with facts and statistics to back them up-do you have anything to back up your arguments other than emotion? Didn't think so-read the article

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a place with facts and statistics brought into the argument to save me the trouble of repeating the evidence all over again... oh wait, we have it now, thank you so much BlaqueKatt!

[AdminAssistant]

and all the arguments you have are addressed here-yes every single one has already been shot down(no pun intended) with facts and statistics to back them up-do you have anything to back up your arguments other than emotion? Didn't think so-read the article

Wow, a website dedicated to promoting the idea of allowing concealed carry on college campuses contains information that....promotes the idea of allowing concealed carry on college campuses. I am incredibly shocked.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Wow, a website dedicated to promoting the idea of allowing concealed carry on college campuses contains information that....promotes the idea of allowing concealed carry on college campuses. I am incredibly shocked.

So, you're saying that because a web site is in support of an idea, that means it's biased and therefore wrong? If that's true then I guess there's no such thing as information and everyone is always lying 100% of the time. /sarcasm

There's plenty of very solid information there. They've done their research and have solid evidence backing each and every one of their arguments. But you're convinced their wrong, not for a lack of evidence, numbers, or logical flaws, but rather that your opinion differs...
say it 'aint so

[Greenday]

Wow, a website dedicated to promoting the idea of allowing concealed carry on college campuses contains information that....promotes the idea of allowing concealed carry on college campuses. I am incredibly shocked.

Obviously you didn't look at the arguments at all. It's painfully obvious. Otherwise you would have noted their sources, such as various journals, department of justices, department of corrections, university studies, the FBI...How are these not credible sources?

The pro-concealed carry side has proven their argument. It's time for those against concealed carry to start using arguments other than "my comfort supersedes others safety". At least throw us a couple sources that might prove why it'd actually be a bad idea.

[Nyoibo]

I call bullshit on the "Well it's not safe where I am" argument, I've walked around Harlem, the Bronx and a lot of areas in Miami (can't remember the areas names ) that are suposedly "dangerous and full of gang bangers" never had a problem. people are saying that it's our irrational fear of guns that we're against CC or even the general public having guns, but your want for guns is driven by fear just the same, dress it up with facts and statistics all you want it's still just from fear, but of course your fear is the rational one.

As for all this "Guns save lives" crap, bullshit, guns have one purpose and one purpose only, to kill.

I noticed in that link that about half those arguments aren't facts and statistics, they're opinions

How about This as an arguement against guns in general? Including this little gem

Individuals in possession of a gun at the time of an assault are 4.46 times more likely to be shot in the assault than persons not in possession (Branas et al, 2009).

[Hobbs]

Wow, a website dedicated to promoting the idea of allowing concealed carry on college campuses contains information that....promotes the idea of allowing concealed carry on college campuses. I am incredibly shocked.

To my friends, no explanation is necessary; to my enemies, no explanation will suffice.

[Greenday]

How about This as an arguement against guns in general? Including this little gem

Well, since this applies to school shootings...oh wait, it doesn't.

And because you managed to go unscathed in some dangerous areas means there is no danger anywhere? Makes no sense. My school had a string of muggings for an entire year. Would concealed carry have made this worse?

Hm, fear of being shot by someone who follows the law and properly follows concealed carry laws/fear of being attacked by a mugger/rapist/guys getting a laugh out of it on campus...which situation are people more likely to encounter. I'll give you a hint, it's not people following concealed carry laws.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

I've done some reading up on those studies referenced in that link, Nyoibo. And most all of them are horribly biased and full of holes or taken from a tiny portion of the nation... or both. To say nothing of being entirely off base (you mean those with access to guns kill with them and not frying pans? *gasp*... that's not the fucking question!) As opposed to numbers taken directly from government agencies dedicated to the protection of the public and taken from the entire nation.

And, having double checked the SCCC page linked to, I've found that the only instances in which they don't have credible science behind their arguments is when they are responding to an opinion to which numbers cannot apply. Naturally in a battle of opinions, that's all you really get.


Also, Hobbs made me LMAO

[Hobbs]

Glad I could, Wingates. As quoted by my grandfather, MSGT, USAF.

[AdminAssistant]

You're right, I don't have sources, links, etc. I'm at the point at the semester where I don't have the time or "give a damn" to do that level of research, and this paper on feminist theatre due next week ain't writing itself.

However, this is a place where I work, where I am every day. And students have a choice. They choose to go to class, they choose which college to go to. If the right to be armed is that damned important, then I would suggest going to a school that allows for that. Apparently they are crime-free wonderlands. I do not have a choice in this matter. I have to teach. This is being forced on a lot of people who don't want it. The vast majority of the people that this bill would directly effect are against it, most specifically the Kansas Board of Regents.

I don't know if this will actually happen. There isn't much time left in this legislative session, and the Senate has a LOT of stuff to do - figuring the budget out should be top priority right now (so that I can know with some certainty that I'll still have a job next year.) I can only hope that the Senate will listen to our voices and at least placate our concerns. If we still had Gov. Sebelius, I know it wouldn't pass. I don't know about Parkinson, though. Frankly, if they allow CC in my workplace, then they should allow CC in their workplace.

My 'fear' and level of discomfort around firearms is not irrational. It makes perfect sense, and is due to the mishandling of them by someone who has a concealed carry license. So, forgive me if I don't put a lot of faith in those requirements. I know how much gets brushed under the table if you're buddies with the right judge or sheriff.

Look at it this way, please. If someone were going to dictate something you hated into your workplace, how would you feel? So, tell me friends, what am I supposed to do if this passes? Just "get over it"? "Deal" with it? Just get a gun myself? (That's one of the things that I just hate, that teachers uncomfortable with the idea that their students will be armed should just....arm themselves!)

[lordlundar]

You have failed utterly to understand both the focus and the scope of my points. Massacre situations are the smallest part of self defense with firearms, it's crime in, around, and en route to and from a campus that makes up the majority of my and most all CCer's concerns.

So your solution is to make the end result of such a situation a lethal outcome more likely. Right, gotcha. News flash, standoffs are only effective in an even odds situation. The criminals don't follow that logic. They will target those who they have an advantage over. So what's the solution then? Give everyone a gun? Great plan there.

It's not about giving weapons to anyone, it's about allowing rational, responsible adults who already arm themselves elsewhere to arm themselves here. Not only are those who take bad grades personally in the extreme minority, but emotional conflicts do not tend to lead to physical attack or use of a firearm. I am not dismissing the possibility of someone unstable getting a permit, happen to be carrying, have an altercation, and decide to use the weapon, I'm saying it's unlikely. As if not more unlikely than a conventional massacre because anyone willing to pull a gun because of one incident is also willing to later come back with a gun anyway.

I've seen your country's gun laws. As a reminder, advocates for starting a new Civil War are considered "rational, reasonable." Or at best have a longer wait to get their new lethal toy. And if they're prevented, all they do is scream their 2nd amendment right is being violated until they get the gun. Yeah, real effective there. (And don't even try to tell me that it doesn't happen. We both know damn well it does, and frequently)

Oh and as for the likelihood, you just had someone tell you that they were threatened with their life over grades MORE THAN ONCE! Said person is easily not the only one, and it's not likely to be all the same source. So, no, it's not as, or even less likely as a massacre, it's more likely because they have already proven that they disregard the life of another and they have the weapon RIGHT THERE! The only difference is that the shooter can plead manslaughter because it wasn't premeditated.

Guns don't turn people into raving lunatics. People don't snap and become psychopaths.

Never said that. But carrying a lethal weapon which consists of "point and pull trigger" certainly increases the odds of someone getting killed by someone not really stable.

If someone threatens physical harm, repeatedly no less, call the fucking cops. Most people predisposed to threatening people already have such citations on their record, which means they can't get a permit to carry concealed anyway. Still, that doesn't stop them from breaking the rules, so for the love of god report them to the authorities yourself so they can be removed from public if need be.

Here's a fun bit of news for you. Every one of those school shootings? Yeah, the shooter(s) all had legally acquired guns despite already being red-flagged. So guess what, apart from committing acts of murder, they broke no laws and your country's laws allowed mentally unstable people who were already considered a threat to arm themselves to the teeth. Yeah, alerting the authorities, who can't do anything until it's too late anyway really helped.

And if they do flout the rules and try to shoot you over a grade, hope to god there's someone capable of stopping them nearby.

So, to stop someone who decides to commit a lethal act over a minor incident is to have someone else willing to commit a lethal act in the area and hope they are the more quick hand. Different person(maybe), but same, if not worse results.

Or, here's a thought. Instead of increasing the likelihood of a lethal result, prevent it by not allowing either person to carry the weapon in the first place.

[Greenday]

lordlundar, let me blow your arguments out of the water in a short response:

If someone is crazy enough to go on a shooting rampage, banning concealed carry doesn't doesn't stop them.

For your argument that involves people shouting about their second amendment rights...what else are they supposed to do if they can't argue that something is unconstitutional? The law doesn't go further than that.

So the crazy people who acquired weapons got guns even with red flags? What does that have to do with concealed carry?

Your example of "not allowing them to carry weapons" doesn't do anything. Even if we banned all guns in America, will that do ANYTHING to stop the crazies from getting guns anyway? No!

[Pagan]

One of our regulars has a concealed carry. Honestly, with some of the meth heads around, it does make me feel safer when he's there.

Point blank, I don't want a kid with a gun in my fucking classroom.

If they are carrying concealed, how are you going to know? Are you going to insist on frisking everybody? Just wondering.

... Oh wait, no it's not, civilians cannot carry guns in Australia, can't in Japan either, or the UK as far as I know and yet amazingly life goes on with no one being either safer or less safe.

Yes, but it hasn't stopped violent crimes in those countries either has it? And do I need to point out that we have a little document called the US Constitiution that gives us the right to be armed....which doesn't mean firearms necessarily.

Allowing concealed carry on campus means that my students may be armed or they may not be. I won't know. And that scares me.

Again, "armed" does not mean only a gun. I don't own a gun or have a CC (yet), but at any given time, I have 1-3 blades on me. Does that scare you, or is it just guns?

A couple of forms, a background check, and a weekend's worth of training from a certified instructor, if memory serves. Both of my parents are registered CC holders (although I have tried desperately to get all the guns out of their house before one of them does something stupid, but I digress).

That's insulting. Why do you assume that because there's guns in the house, that the people that own them waving them around all the time? I grew up with guns in our house and I knew where they were. They weren't locked up either. But I also knew that they weren't toys and I wasn't to mess with them.

Actually, I have no problem with guns, I just see no reason why anyone apart from police the military and some vets and farmers have any need of a firearm.

Again, our 2nd Amendment Rights say this.

P.S. Guns don't *save* lives. If you take out an armed assailant, you have taken a life as a means to prevent further loss. Penicillin saves lives. Guns are a preventive.

Not necessarily. It is possible to shoot to wound.