Arizona's Immigration Bill

[daleduke17]

TWhat should we do? Help out the Mexican government in fighting the cartels and in providing job opportunities.

Not a chance in hell. We have our own problems in our own country. We don't need to be fighting other countries problems. That's why we're in Somalia, Darfur, Iraq and Afghanistan. Their governments don't know what the fuck they're doing. If Calderon thinks there's a problem, he needs to get it to stop.

Streamline the citizenship process.

Not a disagreement here.

Slap heavy sanctions on any employer who hires illegal workers.

Agreed.

Allow amnesty, conditional upon application for citizenship, for those who are already here, working, and who haven't committed any other crimes.

As long as they are wanting to be a citizen of the US. Give them five minutes on the traffic stop (or however the illegal is found) to decide, then toss them on the bus to the airport.

Racial profiling and building a big ass wall are not solutions.

Racial profiling I'll agree with. If the US needs to build a big ass wall, then build the fucking wall. China had one that kept the Mongols out.

[Hobbs]

Crazed, why shouldn't it be considered a legal form of identification?

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Kara, I suggest you watch Ep. 201 of the show 30 Days by Morgan Spurlock (the Super-size Me guy). It deals with a "Minuteman" living with a family of illegal immigrants. At no point does this family get government assistance, and both the mother and father work very hard to provide for their family.

As for Minutemen...they should be arrested for vigilantism and usurping Federal authority.

Not necessarily. The majority of those calling themselves minutmen are basically larger-scale neighborhood watch groups. There's nothing illegal about taking your responsibility to report crime more seriously by keeping an eye out for it. Acting as a private citizen in support of law enforcement and for the betterment of your society is NOT illegal. If it were, good Samaritans would be committing an illegal act by being members of their neighborhood watch and keeping an eye out for car thieves.

Vigilantes are people who take justice into their own hands regardless of the law. It's bad when it's frivolous and murderous, but necessary in extreme circumstances.

Let's just get our terminology straight. Minutemen may be reactionary and often over-patriotic, but they are neither bad people nor criminals due to their involvement in the group(s).

[Hyena Dandy]

Ancestrywise, Native Americans aren't from America. Your argument makes no sense. We are talking about people who aren't from America sneaking into America and getting kicked out for it. Not people who were born legally in America by people who legally entered the country.



Is there a need for the law? No. But obviously something needed to be done in order to get cops to start enforcing current ones.

Nobody has said we need to make all illegal immigrants legal ones. I haven't seen that sentiment on here.

But I would like to think I live in a country that respects the rights of its citizens to go unmolested. This whole law is unconstitutional. It violates the 4th Amendment, which requires that all citizens be given equal protection. I'm fine with deporting illegal immigrants. I can even see the logic behind more punishment for police not enforcing laws, if the law really isn't being enforced. I don't see anything wrong with either of those. My problem is saying that people 'suspected of being illegal immigrants' can be detained.

How do you tell someone's an illegal immigrant? There are legal immigrants working menial jobs, who only speak Spanish, and look Mexican. Those people deserve to be able to do their jobs unmolested for 'looking illegal'.

Also, police can be fined for not investigating if someone is reported for being illegal.

Let's assume there are no racist police officers, and all police officers are psychic and will only stop someone if they have a good reason to believe someone is illegal. Though, since I know there are legal immigrants who don't speak any English, I can only assume that criteria is a T-shirt saying "I'm an illegal immigrant." There are still going to be racist people. I have a friend who was accused of being an illegal immigrant. Not only was she born and raised in the United States, and doesn't have a hint of an accent, she's not Hispanic at all. She's black, but has light skin for it.

Obviously, whoever did that was stupid. But there are stupid people in Arizona too. And if under that law if someone's accused of being an illegal immigrant, they have to immediately provide proof, which must be on them at all times. They're not allowed to go home and get, say, their birth certificate which proves they and their parents were all born in America, even if they look a little Hispanic.





I am not concerned with the rights of illegal immigrants. I am concerned with the rights of the legal ones.

[Draco]

Okay, that truck driver? He was detained by ICE, the United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency. They're what the INS became when they merged into Homeland Security. So it's the Federal government dealing with him. Maybe they suspected he was ferrying illegals? Who knows. I can't read the minds of Federal enforcement officers.

It was confirmed by that Federal agency (in a link in the article provided here) that he was not detained for anything related to this Arizona law, a law that isn't even in effect yet.

And please, stop acting like the police will pull people over just for being hispanic. The law stipulates, and the Governor even signed an amendment to it stressing the point, that the police can only ask for proof of citizenship while someone is being checked/pulled over for some other violation of the law.

So if a person's pulled over for speeding, swerving around the road, DUI, a light out, whatever, the police can then ask for proof of citizenship. With this law being passed, I have a feeling that if an illegal's pulled over, they'd probably be acting suspicious anyway, which would RESULT in being asked for proof.

[Greenday]

And please, stop acting like the police will pull people over just for being hispanic. The law stipulates, and the Governor even signed an amendment to it stressing the point, that the police can only ask for proof of citizenship while someone is being checked/pulled over for some other violation of the law.

You do realize cops can come up with a reason to pull over anyone on the road right? They can find something wrong with anyone's driving/vehicle. So it wouldn't be too hard to find a reason to pull someone that looks Hispanic over.

[daleduke17]

You do realize cops can come up with a reason to pull over anyone on the road right? They can find something wrong with anyone's driving/vehicle. So it wouldn't be too hard to find a reason to pull someone that looks Hispanic over.

There are a multitude of reasons to pull someone over.

Don't want harassed by the police? Don't drive illegally.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

There are a multitude of reasons to pull someone over.

Don't want harassed by the police? Don't drive illegally.

Except that you can be driving perfectly legally and they can still pull you over. There are fuzzy lines all over the place that can be exploited, and there's every reason to believe that this bill with prompt if not outright force them to be exploited anyway.

[Draco]

And if the cop can't back up his reasoning for pulling the guy over, he gets sued, the department gets sued, and the state gets sued.

[Hobbs]

And if the cop can't back up his reasoning for pulling the guy over, he gets sued, the department gets sued, and the state gets sued.

Yea, cuz AZ is soo concerned with Hispanic civil rights

[Wingates_Hellsing]

The cop, the department and the state can be sued. While an extreme case may catch the attention of an organization to help out, most people don't have the time or money to go through that kind of legal struggle over a single inconvenience. But that doesn't change the fact that it will be happening (because otherwise, the cops can get sued for not pushing enough).

[daleduke17]

And if the cop can't back up his reasoning for pulling the guy over, he gets sued, the department gets sued, and the state gets sued.

The officer himself should NOT be able to be sued. Only the department should be sued. There is the whole IA division that can discipline the officer. Why should he get sued when he is acting on behalf of the department?

[crashhelmet]

And please, stop acting like the police will pull people over just for being hispanic. The law stipulates, and the Governor even signed an amendment to it stressing the point, that the police can only ask for proof of citizenship while someone is being checked/pulled over for some other violation of the law.

Yes, the Governor signed an amendment to it because the original law gave the LEO the right to stop them for suspicion of being there illegally. And the ONLY reason it was changed was because of the blatant allowance of racial profiling.

This is from the article about the Truck Driver whom you claim didn't need to provide proof of citizenship. i saw nothing in the article that claimed he was detained for any other reasons, let alone human smuggling.

An agent called his wife and she had to leave work to drive home and grab other documents like his birth certificate.

And

A representative at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) returned 3TV’s calls after researching the incident and she said this was standard operating procedure.

The agents needed to verify Abdon was in the country legally and it is not uncommon to ask for someone's birth certificate. She also said this has nothing to do with the proposed bill or racial profiling.

There are no other links in this thread related to the Truck Driver's unlawful detention.

CH

[HYHYBT]

Try, sometime, *proving* that you were not tailgating, or that you didn't weave a bit within your lane (not illegal, but gives reasonable suspicion for DUI.)

[lordlundar]

As for Minutemen...they should be arrested for vigilantism and usurping Federal authority.

Heh. Ironically, minutemen are more the living embodiment of the 2nd Amendment than the lunatic tea-party person screaming "you can't take my guns away! the constitution says so!"