Arizona's Immigration Bill

[crashhelmet]

For those that don't know, the Arizona State Senate created a Bill that passed through their legislature making it a state crime to be in the country illegally. Among the pieces of this bill is the right for the people of the state to sue the government if they fail to enforce the law properly, if it becomes law that is.

The Governor of Arizona has until Saturday to decide on this bill. The fact that she hasn't done anything with it yet, makes me think she's after the plausible deniability aspect. She can't be tagged for signing it into law or vetoing it if she ignores it. Unfortunately, it would still become a law at that point.

Aside from the whole part about allowing the people to sue the police for not enforcing it, I see the biggest problem being the bill itself. Are people of latin descent going to be required to carry there birth certificates on them at all times to avoid being detained on suspicion of being an illegal? With there be an increase in lawsuits against the police departments for unlawful detainment? What kind of cluster fuck would this law create for the already over-burdened police force in Arizona?

From this article:

Colorado Springs Chief Richard Myers, who weighed in on the issue Wednesday, said Arizona residents may not like what that enforcement looks like.

"If I have a shots-fired call or the potential to stop someone who might be checked for documented status, I'm going to do that before I respond to shots fired because I won't get sued if don't respond to shots fired," he said.

I agree that something needs to be done about illegal immigration, but this is not it. Penalize the companies that employ the illegals, not the police and other government agencies.

CH

[crashhelmet]

I just found the actual Bill online. I'm trying to read through the whole thing without my eyes glazing over, but it looks there is penalty against those that employ illegal aliens as well as transport, smuggle, or house them.

Arizona Senate Bill 1070

President Obama spoke out against this bill today saying it brings up Civil Rights issues and claims his staff will be looking into it at the Federal level.

CH

[daleduke17]

If you're here illegally, you have no rights. I have no problem with this law going into effect. If you're legally here, aren't you required to carry a green card? Just show that to the police if they ask for identification. Pretty simple process.

And why is Obama being so lax on illegal immigration? They're here illegally, fucking deport them. Don't give them rights or citizenship. Give them a ticket to a plane back to where they live and say "If you want to come back, come through the front door."

[crashhelmet]

I agree that anyone here illegally should be kicked out. I'm not debating that. I've got issues with the racial profiling that's going to become rampant as police departments are doing everything they can do keep from getting sued in amounts ranging upto $5k per day, not including legal fees, for not enforcing it.

Police are going to have the right to pull people over for being Latino. They don't have to be speeding or committing any other driving infraction. They only need to be Latino. How is that justifiable in any way?

CH

[Tanasi]

As I understand it the law says it's unlawful for foreign folks to be in AZ without documentation showing/saying they are lawfully allowed to be in AZ. It doesn't say only Latino, so in effect the LEOs should be pulling everyone over to check after all can you tell by just looking at someone if they're here legally???
That being said I do think this will be used to harass by some LEOs but not all. Most likely they'll only verify status if the LEOs are having other interactions with said person.

[Pagan]

I'm in favor of the bill.

That being said, I think that what is really at the root of the matter is border security.

The death toll in Juarez continues to be astounding. In addition to being the murder capital of the Western hemisphere, it's currently more dangerous than Bagdad and Kabul. And that's with the Mexican Army being there. It's just a matter of time before it starts coming in to El Paso. The only thing that separates the cities is the Rio Grande.

It is coming across at Columbus, NM. The police chief of Palomas showed up asking for asylum. http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v08.n409.a07.html The last time Columbus had this much trouble was in 1916.

The State Dept has issued a travel advisory. The dependents of people at the Consulate in Juarez have been encourage to leave after an employee and his pregnant wife in their SUV were killed....with their 7-month-old in the back seat.

I know NMSU and UTEP were telling students not to go to Mexico on Spring Break. I'm pretty sure Juarez is a no-go for the those stationed at Ft. Bliss, Holloman AFB, and WSMR.

This kind of thing is happening more and more:
http://www.krqe.com/dpp/local_guide/...-border-safety

On a more personal level

- I can remember having illegals come up to our carport door, not our front door, when I was little. And we were in Las Cruces, which is a little further, but not much, from the border than El Paso. I can remember several times that my mother, home alone with a small child, would have a gun out in plain sight. This was in the 70's.

- Warnings not to drive on Paisano in El Paso because of the bandidos that would come across.

- Border Patrol has shooters on the other side of the river take pot shots at them.

- Seeing illegals wading across the river from Juarez to El Paso.

I just have to ask, out of curiosity, Crash, where do you live? I've found that most people, even here in ABQ, if they've haven't lived on the border, they really don't realize how damn dangerous it can be.

[daleduke17]

People will only be questioned if there is suspicion of being here illegally.

Here's a very simple solution to avoid running afoul of the law: stay out of the USA unless you decide to enter through the proper procedures.

Why are so many people upset over US Citizens wanting to deport illegal immigrants from any country?

[linguist]

If you're here illegally, you have no rights.

everyone is entitled to human rights, regardless of immigration status. this includes the right to live peacefully without harassment.

People will only be questioned if there is suspicion of being here illegally.

many times "suspicion of being here illegally" is committing no crime other than having dark skin. a few years ago i went to south padre island (which is near the mexican border, for those unfamiliar with texas geography) with some friends. on the way back home, we were stopped on 4 separate occasions by border patrol, who in every instance asked one of my friends who is dark skinned (but not hispanic in any way) to provide id showing he was a legal citizen. the irony is that his (white) wife, who is from new zealand, was never questioned, even when she spoke to the agents with her obviously non-american accent.

[daleduke17]

everyone is entitled to human rights, regardless of immigration status. this includes the right to live peacefully without harassment.

So, murders, rapists and terrorists should be able to commit their crimes, then live in the country and not have to worry about law enforcement harassing them for breaking laws then, right?

[crashhelmet]

Pagan, I live in Vegas. I know how bad things are along the border. Especially in Juarez/El Paso. I've got friends and family that live along both sides of the border in all 4 states.

My great grandparents on both sides of my family were all born in different countries than the US. They all came here legally and earned their citizenship. I'm all for those that want to come to this country legally and become citizens. I'm all against those that come here illegally and milk it for what they can.

That being said, even with all of the violence and the current problems that we have, I cannot support a bill that discriminates against those that are trying to do it the right way or punishes our own LEOs for not being able to stay on top of the problem.

Give them better funding, better training, and penalize those that encourage and promote illegal immigration. Don't force the cops to start pulling over every single person that looks like they weren't born in this country.

I tried to find demographics info on the main AZ site, but had no luck. From wikipedia:

As of 2006, Arizona had an estimated population of 6,166,318.

Snip

According to the 2005-2007 American Community Survey conducted by the U.S. Census Bureau, White Americans made up 76.4% of Arizona's population; of which 59.6% were non-Hispanic whites. Hispanics and Latinos (of any race) made up 29.0% of Arizona's population.

40.4% of 6,166,318 people is approximately 2.4 million people.

How many of these ~2.4 million people are going to start having to carry their birth certificates on them at all times? How many of them are going to be harassed by LEOs because their racist neighbors think they're illegal? How many of these greedy bastards are going to be suing the government at every opportunity because they think their neighbors are illegal and the LEOs aren't doing anything about it?

How can anyone not see the massive negatives in this bill?

How would you feel if we started stopping any and all white males over the age of 30 driving in or around school zones and ran them through the sexual predator database before letting them go?

This is no different.

CH

[Pagan]

everyone is entitled to human rights, regardless of immigration status. this includes the right to live peacefully without harassment.

How is deporting someone that is violating the law of this country by being here illegally violating their human rights? How is it a violation of human rights to protect our border and our citizens and legal resident aliens?

I'm sure that a lot of them are good people, but the fact of the matter is, the moment you set foot on our side of the border without documentation, you are breaking the law.

What about the human rights of the rancher in AZ that was killed by people that crossed into the US illegally? What about the human rights of the border patrol agent that was shot in January by illegals?

I got through a border patrol check-point several times a year. Most of the time, yes, they do wave me through. Mainly because of all the NMSU stickers on my car, and given that this check-point is less than 20 miles outside of the city that NMSU is in, they know I'm a local. However, ever now and then, I do get one that plays 20 Questions. I'll get asked if I went to Juarez. (Hell, no, don't want to get shot at!).

Like I said before, you've got to realize and understand that the US/Mexican border is dangerous.

[Rapscallion]

So, murders, rapists and terrorists should be able to commit their crimes, then live in the country and not have to worry about law enforcement harassing them for breaking laws then, right?

The general definition of human rights doesn't give the right to commit crimes, unless those crimes involve having shelter, light, food, etc.

There's also human rights and rights of citizenship. If you're not a citizen, you don't get the right to stay there, for example.

Rapscallion

[linguist]

So, murders, rapists and terrorists should be able to commit their crimes, then live in the country and not have to worry about law enforcement harassing them for breaking laws then, right?

apparently you don't understand the meaning of "peacefully." those who are committing murder, rape, and acts of terror are hardly living peacefully.

[daleduke17]

apparently you don't understand the meaning of "peacefully." those who are committing murder, rape, and acts of terror are hardly living peacefully.

And the ones living here illegally are not living peacefully either. They are taking shelter, food and services that legal residents could be utilizing. Like Pagan said, even lives are being taken.

Not really peaceful, is it?

[linguist]

And the ones living here illegally are not living peacefully either. They are taking shelter, food and services that legal residents could be utilizing. Like Pagan said, even lives are being taken.

Not really peaceful, is it?

once again, those taking lives are not living peacefully. as for services, i think everyone has a right to not be treated as subhuman for committing no crime other than being on the wrong side of an imaginary line.