Arizona's Immigration Bill

[Hobbs]

Heh. Ironically, minutemen are more the living embodiment of the 2nd Amendment than the lunatic tea-party person screaming "you can't take my guns away! the constitution says so!"

How have you come to that conclusion?

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

How have you come to that conclusion?

I'll take a shot at it. (no pun intended, really)

The 2nd amendment states, roughly:

A well armed militia being necessary to the security of a free nation, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The minutemen are actively armed while the patrol the U.S.-Mexican border in order to prevent illegal border crossings. In my view that is somewhat in line with the original intent of the 2nd amendment.

Whoever mentioned the 30 days episode I went and watched it and the Minutemen shown in the episode weren't involved in any illegal activity, they simply monitored the border and called authorities if they saw illegals crossing.

[Hobbs]

I'll take a shot at it. (no pun intended, really)

The 2nd amendment states, roughly:

A well armed militia being necessary to the security of a free nation, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The minutemen are actively armed while the patrol the U.S.-Mexican border in order to prevent illegal border crossings. In my view that is somewhat in line with the original intent of the 2nd amendment.

Whoever mentioned the 30 days episode I went and watched it and the Minutemen shown in the episode weren't involved in any illegal activity, they simply monitored the border and called authorities if they saw illegals crossing.

Ah, but Article II of the Constitution gives Congress the power, "To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the Union surpress insurrections and repel invasions..."

I haven't heard of the Minutemen being authorized, nor called upon, by Congress to support the border service.

[Hyena Dandy]

While I don't know whether people like the minutemen are what the founding fathers intended (from what I interpreted, they were trying to arm people against their own government) that doesn't mean we should take their arms away, or stop them from doing what they're doing. There's nothing wrong with keeping our borders legal. They say keeping them safe. Maybe, maybe not. A lot of illegal immigrants want to come in to make a living. I don't think they're all mad rapists and criminals, and probably about a similar proportion to inner-cities in the US. Not ALL criminals. But keep the borders legal, because we have laws about immigration. Some people say the laws are too strict. I disagree, but if they are, let's change them. We can't just look at illegal immigrants and say "Well, while you're here, why not join up?"



And when did a truck driver get into this?

Someone said not to talk about him, but I Don't remember anyone bringing him up.


Is he an illegal immigrant into our thread?

*becomes a Thread Minuteman, stopping illegal topics from entering the threads*

[Hobbs]

While I don't know whether people like the minutemen are what the founding fathers intended (from what I interpreted, they were trying to arm people against their own government) that doesn't mean we should take their arms away, or stop them from doing what they're doing. There's nothing wrong with keeping our borders legal. They say keeping them safe. Maybe, maybe not. A lot of illegal immigrants want to come in to make a living. I don't think they're all mad rapists and criminals, and probably about a similar proportion to inner-cities in the US. Not ALL criminals. But keep the borders legal, because we have laws about immigration. Some people say the laws are too strict. I disagree, but if they are, let's change them. We can't just look at illegal immigrants and say "Well, while you're here, why not join up?"



And when did a truck driver get into this?

Someone said not to talk about him, but I Don't remember anyone bringing him up.


Is he an illegal immigrant into our thread?

*becomes a Thread Minuteman, stopping illegal topics from entering the threads*

The truck driver was a Hispanic, American citizen who was stopped and asked his legal status. When he produced DL and SSN, he was arrested until his wife brought his Birth Certificate. IDK why he shouldn't be discussed in this thread, though.

[fireheart17]

http://www.planetfeedback.com/arizon...ion+law/325158

Here's a letter about the law. Discuss freely.

[Hobbs]

http://www.planetfeedback.com/arizon...ion+law/325158

Here's a letter about the law. Discuss freely.

Is there a way to report posts on PFB?

[fireheart17]

Is there a way to report posts on PFB?

I would suggest emailing them and seeing what they say???

[tabbyblack13]

Everyone states that the federal government should be responsible for immigration, right. The problem is that the federal government in not taking a stance. Obama finally talked about immigration after the bill was signed. I live in Arizona and illegal immigrants are a big problem.

Not only are they trafficking people but they are also bringing in a lot of illegal drugs. Then the coyotes (name for people to guild illegals) will hold the illegals hostage for more money, this time the money needs to be from there family members both in America and in Mexico. These drop houses are often crowded with no running water or electricity. During the summer many illegals suffer from heat stroke while being held in these buildings. Crossing the desert is also a major problem too. Last year there were 417 known deaths. In 2008 there were 390 known deaths. One motion camera caught over 700 people in 40 day in one location on the US side. Somethings got to give.

If you want to know where I got my information go to www.kpho.com and look for the videos "Cameras Catch Immigrants Crossing into the United States" and "CBS 5 Investigates Human Smuggling Drop Houses"

[crashhelmet]

Tabby... I don't think anyone here is saying that illegal immigration isn't a problem. The problem here is with that law. It goes about enforcing it the wrong way. While it looks like it might have finally lit a fire under the Federal Government's ass, it could end up hurting the State in the process with countless lawsuits.

CH

[IDrinkaRum]

Terry v. Ohio - 1968

Wiki says this 1968 ruling says:

...was a decision by the United States Supreme Court which held that the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures is not violated when a police officer stops a suspect on the street and searches him without probable cause to arrest, if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime.

This means, anyone can be stopped if they're doing some suspicious. This will not be racial profiling. And here is one way that it can be avoided: Cop sees car full of people (small car, packed with too many people to be comfortable), driving in the middle of nowhere, in an area where there is no tourist attractions, no major tourist towns, etc. What are these people doing in the middle of nowhere in a car packed with too many people? Cop pulls them over. These people could be black, white, purple.

Also, one of the reasons the Arizona people asked for their state to do something? People were afraid of leaving their homes to get basic items (food, clothing, medical treatment) because they'd have a 50/50 chance of coming back and finding their homes occupied by illegal immigrants/drug runners. Can you imagine?

Also, ftr, I have very dark brown hair, brown eyes, and very fair skin. I have been mistaken for being either Italian or Mexican. So technically, I can be pulled over too, but I'm not whining about it.

[Hobbs]

Terry v. Ohio - 1968

Wiki says this 1968 ruling says:



This means, anyone can be stopped if they're doing some suspicious. This will not be racial profiling. And here is one way that it can be avoided: Cop sees car full of people (small car, packed with too many people to be comfortable), driving in the middle of nowhere, in an area where there is no tourist attractions, no major tourist towns, etc. What are these people doing in the middle of nowhere in a car packed with too many people? Cop pulls them over. These people could be black, white, purple.

Also, one of the reasons the Arizona people asked for their state to do something? People were afraid of leaving their homes to get basic items (food, clothing, medical treatment) because they'd have a 50/50 chance of coming back and finding their homes occupied by illegal immigrants/drug runners. Can you imagine?

Also, ftr, I have very dark brown hair, brown eyes, and very fair skin. I have been mistaken for being either Italian or Mexican. So technically, I can be pulled over too, but I'm not whining about it.

Do you have proof of the egregious claim to the second part of your post?

How are you comfortable with being stopped because of how you look?!

[IDrinkaRum]

Proof of what? That I've been mistaken for being Italian or Mexican? I've been asked by people who think I'm Italian if I'm Italian.

As for being mistaken for being Mexican? When I worked fast food, I had a customer come in, come up to me, start talking to me in Spanish, and when I looked at them blankly, the customer was shocked that I wasn't Mexican! She also wouldn't order from me anymore and had to have my Peruvian manager wait on her because she didn't want a non-hispanic waiting on her. (When the woman said "What? You're not Mexican?" she said it in unaccented English, sounding like she'd been here all her life. Plus, FTR, as I think I've mentioned it in another thread, my Great-Grandmother's family came directly from Spain and my Great-Grandma had 2 sisters who were disowned because they married Mexicans. I guess back then, the European Spaniards didn't want to mix with anything that wasn't pure Spaniard).

As for being pulled over? I'd assume that it would be because of what I was doing, not how I look. I cannot stop people from thinking I'm Mexican or Italian or whatever other ethnicity I might look like. (I've even been asked - because I have curly hair - if there wasn't any black ancestory in my family line).

Plus, as I said before, this will not lead to racial profiling. As in my post above, the people in the car could all be blond & blue eyed and they'd be pulled over because the cops would have a reasonable suspicion of them doing something illegal.

[Hobbs]

Proof of what? That I've been mistaken for being Italian or Mexican? I've been asked by people who think I'm Italian if I'm Italian.

As for being mistaken for being Mexican? When I worked fast food, I had a customer come in, come up to me, start talking to me in Spanish, and when I looked at them blankly, the customer was shocked that I wasn't Mexican! She also wouldn't order from me anymore and had to have my Peruvian manager wait on her because she didn't want a non-hispanic waiting on her. (When the woman said "What? You're not Mexican?" she said it in unaccented English, sounding like she'd been here all her life. Plus, FTR, as I think I've mentioned it in another thread, my Great-Grandmother's family came directly from Spain and my Great-Grandma had 2 sisters who were disowned because they married Mexicans. I guess back then, the European Spaniards didn't want to mix with anything that wasn't pure Spaniard).

As for being pulled over? I'd assume that it would be because of what I was doing, not how I look. I cannot stop people from thinking I'm Mexican or Italian or whatever other ethnicity I might look like. (I've even been asked - because I have curly hair - if there wasn't any black ancestory in my family line).

Plus, as I said before, this will not lead to racial profiling. As in my post above, the people in the car could all be blond & blue eyed and they'd be pulled over because the cops would have a reasonable suspicion of them doing something illegal.

If you noticed, I said the second part of your post. Segundo!

What's your proof that 50% of AZ residents leave their home only to be vacated by illegal immigrant squatters?

It may be so, but there's nothing to stop them from racially profiling me. If I were to have gone across the border and crossed back into the US by way of AZ, I have no doubt I'd be stopped and questioned.

[crashhelmet]

This is a 2 part answer. Cause and Effect.

What causes this law to lead to racial profiling is the fact that it must be enforced or the Law Enforcement organizations can be sued by the people for amounts upto $5k a day for every day that it's not enforced.

They might not start pulling over EVERY car with a hispanic looking person in it, but how many people like this truck driver are going to be unlawfully detained strictly because they're hispanic and don't have their birth certificates on them?

Now how many non-hispanics do you think are going to be asked for their papers at routine traffic stops? Are the police going to have to change their "greeting" to "License, registration, and birth certificate please" for everyone they stop? That's the only way it would not be racial profiling.

It's either equal treatment or it's racial profiling.

CH