"I want to be treated the same as everyone else"

[Hobbs]

Excuse me, but how does a child "flaunt" their "blatant abuse of our laws"? I don't get why you seem to want to hold children culpable of their parents' misdeeds. It's thinking like that that leads to death lists etc.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Article 2
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty

[Kimmik]

Excuse me, but how does a child "flaunt" their "blatant abuse of our laws"? I don't get why you seem to want to hold children culpable of their parents' misdeeds. It's thinking like that that leads to death lists etc.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Article 2
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty

omfg did you really equate death squads coming from the fact that a child shouldn't be a citizen if their parents aren't??? What is wrong with giving the child citizenship that the parents have. Many countries use jus sanguinis and really I have no problem with the current jus soli as long as the parents are here legally and they should have the same legal status that their parents have.

But it has been known for a long time that America will not deport a child's parents in most cases. And that is the flagrant abuse I speak of.

[Hobbs]

You've previously said that you don't believe being born on US soil should make you a citizen, yet here you are contradicting yourself.

I would like to assert that those leaving the northern states of Mexico for the United States are subject to refugee status, fleeing the escalating violence as Mexico seems unable to withstand the drug cartels.

Article 9.
•No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 12.
•No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 14.
•(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
•(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations

Article 15.
•(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
•(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 22.
•Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

[Kimmik]

Ok lets look at the UDHR points you decided to pull out shall we?

“Article 9.
•No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.”

Arbitrary is the key word here... it means that the government can't throw you in jail or kick you out just for shits and giggles.

“Article 12.
•No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.”

There is no interference with family if the child takes the parents citizenship and again there is that term Arbitrary...

“Article 14.
•(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
•(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations”

Right I can apply to Canada if I am being persecuted by my government hence what #2 says.

“Article 15.
•(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
•(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality”

Right if you wish to apply to x country for citizenship your government cant stop you.

'Article 22.
•Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality. '

I am sorry every country has its laws. The UDHR was not created to protect people from violating countries laws. It was written to protect people from repressive governments, like Iran were a woman needs a male relative's permission to leave, or Russia when it was the USSR and people had to flee to defect or East Germany etc. Other wise Britain could not turn away someone who the deem is a threat, nor could Canada etc...

[Hobbs]

You've completely misinterpreted the UDHR, as I assume you have also misinterpreted the notion of human rights. I've still yet to hear why a person born in the US from American citizens is a better person than a person born in the US from an immigrant.

Article 30.
•Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein

[HYHYBT]

So: several people in this thread have said that being born somewhere is not a good enough reason to get automatic citizenship. At least one added that you should have to have *both* parents citizens. But suppose for the moment that that's the way it is. Now, what happens when, say, a Canadian and a Mexican have a child together in Nebraska? The child doesn't belong in the US, because the parents are from elsewhere. It also doesn't belong in Canada or Mexico, because only one parent is from each. Where is he supposed to go? For that matter, a US citizen who has a baby here with someone from out of the country would be out of luck as well. It just makes no sense.

[Kimmik]

Hyhybt But are they here legally... if so then ok the child has their legal status... If I gave the impression of both I apologize.. I believe that the child should be a citizen of the parents country or countries.

Like a friend of mine.. she is from eastern Europe and her Husband is a citizen here via the citizen process... I would see no problem for the child to hold duel until the age of majority when they can chose where they want to have their citizenship. the children get American citizenship from the father since he is a citizen.. and vise versa if the roles are reversed.

I do not like the fact that if a child is born here because their parents violated the law and entered the country illegally the get citizenship and in most cases the parent/s get immunity..


I will say though that just because you have children that have citizenship doesn't protect you always... a relative of mine had her husband deported.. She and the kids are citizens her husband had entered the country illegally.. while I am sad the kids lost their dad... part of me echos my Uncles sentiment.. that people need to come here legally.

[Plaidman]

I will say though that just because you have children that have citizenship doesn't protect you always... a relative of mine had her husband deported.. She and the kids are citizens her husband had entered the country illegally.. while I am sad the kids lost their dad... part of me echos my Uncles sentiment.. that people need to come here legally.

Why. Why do so many people have this view? Hmm?

I won't bother making the reference that when Britian conquered here, they sure as hell didn't legally come here.

But I have had many customers. Many workers. Even friends that sure, come here illegally, but hey, they do their damnest to work hard jobs under the table to put food on their family troubles.

This land is for the free. So many countries out there basically make their citizens slaves with no freedom. There are some countries, that even flat out state that only X amount of people may move to america per year. So it not like any person can just go, hey I'll sign a piece of paper and that makes me legal here!

No. Its a time consumming process that can takes years. It can alot of money by our standards, and when they might make fifty cents a day, its going to take even greater amount of time in YEARS before they can come here.

As long as they work, keep whatever welfare to the minimal, and not break any major laws such as murder, theft, etc, then everyone has the right to live here, or anywhere else.

It makes me sick that so many people want to kick people out, or refuse them to live here in what should be a great land (its not really) just because they aren't born on a freaking piece of soil. This is a fucking planet, and we all live here. We might as well stop acting like goddamn bullies and say "NO! YOU CAN'T PLAY IN OUR SANDBOX UNLESS YOU PAY ME FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS AND SUCH!! I DON'T CARE YOU MAKE FIFTY CENTS A DAY, MAKE MORE MONEY!!!!!"

[BlaqueKatt]

We can't force the baby out and since the baby is a minor and can't (by law) take care of itself, we have to at least allow the mother to stay here.

um no they don't-there's this lovely thing called "foster care" perhaps you've heard of it-we have a thread here somewhere where a woman lost her child due to a language barrier-IIRC she was deported due to "child abuse" and her US citizen child was here.

[Hobbs]

I will say though that just because you have children that have citizenship doesn't protect you always... a relative of mine had her husband deported.. She and the kids are citizens her husband had entered the country illegally.. while I am sad the kids lost their dad... part of me echos my Uncles sentiment.. that people need to come here legally.

So you support a law that breaks apart families? And you think they're the criminals?

[Kimmik]

Why. Why do so many people have this view? Hmm?

I won't bother making the reference that when Britian conquered here, they sure as hell didn't legally come here.

But I have had many customers. Many workers. Even friends that sure, come here illegally, but hey, they do their damnest to work hard jobs under the table to put food on their family troubles.

This land is for the free. So many countries out there basically make their citizens slaves with no freedom. There are some countries, that even flat out state that only X amount of people may move to america per year. So it not like any person can just go, hey I'll sign a piece of paper and that makes me legal here!

No. Its a time consumming process that can takes years. It can alot of money by our standards, and when they might make fifty cents a day, its going to take even greater amount of time in YEARS before they can come here.

As long as they work, keep whatever welfare to the minimal, and not break any major laws such as murder, theft, etc, then everyone has the right to live here, or anywhere else.

It makes me sick that so many people want to kick people out, or refuse them to live here in what should be a great land (its not really) just because they aren't born on a freaking piece of soil. This is a fucking planet, and we all live here. We might as well stop acting like goddamn bullies and say "NO! YOU CAN'T PLAY IN OUR SANDBOX UNLESS YOU PAY ME FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS AND SUCH!! I DON'T CARE YOU MAKE FIFTY CENTS A DAY, MAKE MORE MONEY!!!!!"

.

By the way hun the uncle that I was referring to came from central Mexico and he worked the fields, he came here legally and he believed and taught me to believe that everyone should follow the laws. That man is one of my hero's and were I get my view of a job is a job and there is no job that I am to good for.

Are you willing to sponsor someone? Make sure that they are not dependent on the system, that they have adequate housing, that they have jobs, that they can be self supportive and have a network they can rely on?

The reasons that countries are sovereign and have immigration laws is because a government can only be stretched so thin. Look at the States now. Most states welfare systems are taxed, their infrastructure is collapsing.

Hell there is not ONE of us on this board that doesn't have some immigrant in their family... I am all for immigration ...LEGAL.. Almost all the immigrants that I know have come here legally. Friends from Eastern Europe, Pakistan, Ireland, Mexico and Greece all went through the tape.

It is discriminatory to say that some should get a free pass when so many have came here through the legal route.

[Pagan]

I realize that most here illegally are just trying to make a living, but why should they get to break our laws to do so? There are many, many people that came here legally that get even more pissed off than US citizens that other people come here illegally. The feeling is that they were able to do it the right way, why can't everybody else.

And, by the way, it is horrifically expensive to get into this country illegally. That's if you don't happen to get a coyote that's more dishonest than the others and abandons your group to die in the desert.

Now, what happens when, say, a Canadian and a Mexican have a child together in Nebraska? The child doesn't belong in the US, because the parents are from elsewhere. It also doesn't belong in Canada or Mexico, because only one parent is from each. Where is he supposed to go? For that matter, a US citizen who has a baby here with someone from out of the country would be out of luck as well. It just makes no sense.

It looks like many countries, if one or both of the parents is a citizen, so is the child. Something like this would most likely give the child dual-citizenship.

[Plaidman]

And there are plenty of countries out there, that just can't due to their own goverement stating they cannnot come here. Nor do they have enough money even if they could. If they can get in here, and get a job asap, pay their bills and not break laws, I don't think its very fair to boot them out simply because they cannot afford the bills to be allowed to be legalize in the first place.

Tell me. If you might make 50 cents a day if your lucky, you need food, need to take care of your family, how long will it take you to save up the $900?

Hmm...

Oh yeah. About five years.

Assuming of course, they don't spend a single penny at all. But that means no food. No shelter. No water. Even then, that just for once person. If you have a family, well yeah. Good luck with that.

But hey. This country is just so great, that people should basically say screw their families, have them starve to death so they can come in here legally only to be screwed over here.

Its not that horrible if people come here illegally, and do jobs and are productive. It elitist thinking otherwise.

[Kimmik]

Its not that horrible if people come here illegally, and do jobs and are productive. It elitist thinking otherwise.

So my Uncle who came here legally, got his green card then citizenship and worked the fields his whole life here was elitist because he thought everyone should come via the legal route?

Illegal is Illegal is Illegal.

I am sorry but the law applies to all, be you from Mexico or Latvia. Come here legally. My adopted Aunt did.. My Uncle did, my friend and her husband did... and they were not from wealthy countries or families.. and they all managed to come here legally.

[Plaidman]

Not so much your uncle as the goverment that basically needs to act like giant bullies.

Not all people get lucky breaks like your uncle. For example, a woman from Iraq? Good luck to her getting here legally. She'll ether break laws there that could get her KILLED, versus breaking a stupid law here, but getting enough time and money saved up to become a citizen.

Egypt? Need to be one of the of they very few people that the Egypt goverment may or may not grant a chance to be a US citizen. Once a year. Maybe ten people. Can't choose to come here otherwise period.

Ethopia? Niger? Somalia? Freaking CONGO? Sure. All anyone from there has to do is take a dump, and they'll magically have the money to get here.

It just not plain easy for some people. After all, how can one come here legally, if they don't even have a penny period to get here?

I'm not saying that America should accept all people regardless. I don't like it when people abuse welfare, American or otherwise, but if someone can sneak in here, and get a job, go to school, work hard to be productive, then they shouldn't be treated like shit just because they so happen to not be able to get the money to become citizens in the first place.

This land is home of the free, and should accept everyone that can be productive people.