"I want to be treated the same as everyone else"

[Plaidman]

I used to be that way rape culture ("pfft, it's just a song/movie/book, it's fiction, get over it". . .kind of still true, really, I'm a shitty progressive)

Huh... your telling people who get raped to get over it???

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Huh... your telling people who get raped to get over it???

I think it's in reference to media in which rape is depicted...

You'know, movies books etc. in which a rape is depicted and which might in some way contribute to whether or not someone chooses to rape (dumb idea IMO) or offend people who have been raped/know someone who's been raped (in which case, either get over it, or don't watch/read)

[Plaidman]

You'know, movies books etc. in which a rape is depicted and which might in some way contribute to whether or not someone chooses to rape (dumb idea IMO)

May be dumb, but not far from truth. It's been proven that alot of abusers have been abused.

Not all do that. And it's mostly abused males that turn into abusers.

Again, not all, but some.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

May be dumb, but not far from truth. It's been proven that alot of abusers have been abused.

Not all do that. And it's mostly abused males that turn into abusers.

Again, not all, but some.

That is true, but there's never been a solid connection between access to rape depicted in books and movies, and perpetrating rape. It's whether or not depicted rape should be stopped because of either:

A) Depicted rape leads to higher incidence of rape (BS)
or
B) Depicted rape might offend some people (also BS)

[Hobbs]

I think depicted rape does offend people...how's that bs?

[Boozy]

I'd rather not derail this entire thread based of one comment made on the side as an example.

Start another thread if you want to take up the "rape in media" debate. It should be a good one.

We'll leave this thread to the original topic, please.

[daleduke17]

It's not racist if it's true

How is it not racist?

[Nyoibo]

How is it not racist?

I believe Hobbs was being facetious.

[NodmiTheSellout]

What annoys me about that post is I apparently forgot to put "about" rape culture. Whoops. Anyway, I'll gladly participate in a thread about it, might even start one after I write this post. I just read an article that's a great (read: terrible) illustration of the way rape is diminished in print, for example.

Re: affirmative action being a prop-up, though. . .

But getting rid of this "artificial propping up" isn't going to make people magically equal. All getting rid of affirmative action (for example) will do is put less people of color in jobs, in schools, etc.. It's pathetic that companies need to be told to hire/accept people of color, but clearly they do. Doing this is all the government can do. PSAs don't work. No matter how many times people are told that everyone is equal, it's going to take a long time for them to actually believe it--and it's going to take seeing more people of color with the same education and employment opportunities as white people.

It's not as though there are no grants/scholarships out there for white men at all. If minorities should work harder to get basic respect and opportunity, then the same is true for white men. It's just silly to me that the occasional occurrence of a white guy not getting a job/spot in a school--because there are already so many white guys there, many of whom were "propped up" by wealth, by social connections, etc., that is a product of their racial privilege--is this horrid, unjust thing where, in the absence of that injustice, there would be sweeping discrimination against people of color. . .ugh. I can't wrap my head around it. I'm not gonna pretend that's not discrimination--but the discrimination you experience pales in comparison to what your life would be like if you happened to be poor and a minority. Life wouldn't be some wonderland of scholarships and getting jobs because you're what they need to fill a quota.

Basically, these things need to "artificially prop up" people because, in many ways, white people start already propped up, through no merit of their own (think, even in the case of a poor white man--it's easier to get a loan as a white man than a minority). So it's just leveling the playing field in whatever way they can. I'm guessing the philosophy behind affirmative action, if you will, is to make minority people less of a minority sight. Not hidden away in "that part of town", but your classmates, your coworkers--visible, and equal. This will lead to a better view of minority people overall, and eventually eliminate the need for affirmative action. . .though I don't know by what means the government might determine it unnecessary. I don't think it should be something that lasts until the end of the world, though.

[Fryk]

Yes, but are you saying that by "artificially propping up" minorities, we'll end up with equality faster?

[draggar]

It's not as though there are no grants/scholarships out there for white men at all.

But are there any exclusively for white people, not just available to white people? I had a friend in high school who was an immigrant from India (legal). Just because she was a minority she was offered extra grants and scholarships. Just because she was an immigrant she got more grants and scholarships. She took full advantage of her non-citizen status to go to a state university and then a very nice post-graduate school for next to nothing.

Me, being a white male, didn't have these benefits exclusive to me nor were there any exclusive to being a citizen. I had to work hard to put myself though a community college (already mentioned in a previous post).

If minorities should work harder to get basic respect and opportunity, then the same is true for white men.

I don't have an issue with this - people should have to work to earn their living.

It's just silly to me that the occasional occurrence of a white guy not getting a job/spot in a school--because there are already so many white guys there, many of whom were "propped up" by wealth, by social connections, etc., that is a product of their racial privilege--is this horrid, unjust thing where, in the absence of that injustice, there would be sweeping discrimination against people of color. . .ugh.

I've seen it happen quite a few times. It's hard to consider that it's "occasional" when you see it often.

I was never propped up by wealth (hell, my parents used to sit sown the night before grocery shopping to see if they could budget in a bag of potato chips or some other cheap snack for my sister and I). The best connections my parents had was a manager at a local grocery store that my father worked at or some salesperson in the office my mom was a secretary at (when she worked). I was happy to have a roof over my head. I was happy to be able to go to school. Did I have the best childhood? Far from it but I know my parents did the best that they could with what they had.

So then since I didn't have all that- by the logic of these programs, shouldn't I get at least half of it? Shouldn't I get some handouts because of it? You don't see me shouting that I need more handouts, that I need an advantage over other people. You see me working harder to overcome it. You see me working harder to prove myself to my supervisors and co-workers.

I can't wrap my head around it. I'm not gonna pretend that's not discrimination--but the discrimination you experience pales in comparison to what your life would be like if you happened to be poor and a minority. Life wouldn't be some wonderland of scholarships and getting jobs because you're what they need to fill a quota.

Not once did I say my life was as bad as some people but it seems that society thinks that being a "majority" puts you at this all high and mighty pedestal on the social ladder and in many cases that is far from the truth.

[jackfaire]

If I put my feet up on the bus seat I get yelled at. Bring a pet dog on the bus I get told to get off.

If you have a visible disability the rules of the bus no longer apply to you. Want to have a three course meal on the bus when there is no food or drink allowed except in closed containers well if your in a wheel chair it's okay hell doesn't even matter if you make a mess.

I know this makes me sound like an asshole but here is my thing, I can understand ignoring a rule that you are not physically capable of following but ignoring a rule simply because you want to is screwed up and it's worse that everyone endorses this bad behavior.

[Plaidman]

If I put my feet up on the bus seat I get yelled at. Bring a pet dog on the bus I get told to get off.

If you have a visible disability the rules of the bus no longer apply to you. Want to have a three course meal on the bus when there is no food or drink allowed except in closed containers well if your in a wheel chair it's okay hell doesn't even matter if you make a mess.

I know this makes me sound like an asshole but here is my thing, I can understand ignoring a rule that you are not physically capable of following but ignoring a rule simply because you want to is screwed up and it's worse that everyone endorses this bad behavior.

I'm all for those bus rules, within reason. No offense, but how is it fair for you to take TWO seats, and make someone stand? I've brought plenty of pets on the bus and never gotten told no. If the pet is in a carrier or on a leash, then it's fine at least in Portland.

And same with food. I've seen plenty of people bring food and eat it. However, if you leave a mess then yeah, you can get in trouble. You be surprise how fast people can get tracked on our buses and banned. I've eaten subway sandwhichs, burgers, ice cream. Hell when I was racing to school I ate part of a steak on the bus. (Just with hands, no knives).

Is it against the rules? Yes. But I've seen that if you do not leave a mess, do not act like your high and mighty, then some people let others slide, as long as they are decent enough not to leave a big mess and cause problems for others.

Same with food at movies. I bring my candy. I bring my soda. Family always makes fun of me for it, because I tend to follow alot of rules that make sense, like carding people for my job, (which my sister hates beyond all passion at places she goes. She just hates it. She's 35. Its obvious that she isn't 21, why the fuck does she need to show her ID. No amount of me talking to her will get through her head. I'm thinking cause she's getting her PhD soon, she just arrogant enough to belive she's smarter then alot of people. Which is true. She's very intelligent). Do I leave a mess at movies? NOPE. Do I brag about it? NOPE. Do I scream at others for bringing in snacks or tattling? Sometimes. When they leave a big mess. Because then, your causing OTHER people problems.

Some rules I belive, can be broken, if they don't cause unfair problems for others.

[Kimmik]

If I put my feet up on the bus seat I get yelled at. Bring a pet dog on the bus I get told to get off.

If you have a visible disability the rules of the bus no longer apply to you. Want to have a three course meal on the bus when there is no food or drink allowed except in closed containers well if your in a wheel chair it's okay hell doesn't even matter if you make a mess.

I know this makes me sound like an asshole but here is my thing, I can understand ignoring a rule that you are not physically capable of following but ignoring a rule simply because you want to is screwed up and it's worse that everyone endorses this bad behavior.

Ok First off hun a guide dog is more then "a pet" it is a lifeline for those that need them. From the blind to people with seizures... it is like a police dog.. minus the eat your face part of a police dog's attitude.

And it is a Federal Law... not to be mean to you.. but to be fair to those who need such assistance.

[protege]

Not once did I say my life was as bad as some people but it seems that society thinks that being a "majority" puts you at this all high and mighty pedestal on the social ladder and in many cases that is far from the truth.

That's *exactly* how many minorities (at least locally) seem to feel. They always want to believe that "whitey" has it so easy.

Pardon my French, but fuck that. If that was true, why did my parents struggle financially for the past 25 years? Why did my father have to work multiple part-time jobs to support his children? Why were there no agencies willing to help us? In fact, *nobody* helped us out. In the end, we climbed out of that financial mess by working our goddamn asses off. Even now, many years later...my parents *still* haven't quite recovered

With that said, shouldn't I be eligible for some sort of hand-out?

Back on topic somewhat, as long as programs like affirmative action exist, people will *never* be "equal." All those things (along with reparations for descendants of slaves) aren't really going to accomplish much...other than breed resentment, much like what happened in 1920s Germany.