The rape culture thread.

[Hobbs]

misogyny

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

misogyny
[misoj′inē]
Etymology: Gk, misein, to hate, gyne, women
an aversion to women. misogynist, n., misogynistic, adj

[NodmiTheSellout]

I think you're picking and choosing dictionary definitions, because most of them say "hatred, dislike or mistrust." It's used as an umbrella term for oppressive attitudes toward women, in most cases. Which reducing women down to their sexual usefulness definitely is.

Many songs I listen to contain misogyny in the form of "I hate the power a woman has when I'm so attracted to her, she needs to die" or "A woman so beautiful can't be trusted to exist in such an ugly world, I gotta kill her", i.e., ugly sentiments that a good progressive would probably refrain from consuming. I admit that my logic of giving it a free pass because it's a bit more over the top than the ridiculous way romance is painted in pop items (i.e. Twilight) or sex-without-romance is addressed (objectifying media like certain songs or certain kinds of pornography) isn't very sound. What it comes down to is, I like these musicians, the songs entertain me, and I don't want to stop listening to them to prove a point. Which makes me something of a poor progressive, compared with those who hear something like that and stop listening immediately. I admit that. People ain't perfect. It doesn't mean I'm ignorant of the criticisms and can't admit their validity.

[Hobbs]

What it comes down to is, I like these musicians, the songs entertain me, and I don't want to stop listening to them to prove a point. Which makes me something of a poor progressive, compared with those who hear something like that and stop listening immediately. I admit that. People ain't perfect. It doesn't mean I'm ignorant of the criticisms and can't admit their validity.

Pardon my saying so, but it makes you a hypocrite.

[Fryk]

Ok, cool. I'll buy that. I have to say, your line of thinking and your explanation are more refreshing to me than I lot of BS hypocrisy I hear coming from the mouth of 'progressives'.

The thing I tought about with that commercial and what you said is that it's not the commercial itself to me that's the problem. It's the thinking behind its being made in the first place. Am I correct in thinking that's where you're saying the problem is?

[NodmiTheSellout]

Re: Fryk, yes, that's the gist of it.

Re:Hobbs, I can live with that. Someone who claims not to be a hypocrite in anything ever is probably lying to themselves. I am a hypocrite for consuming media that is problematic, while knowing it is problematic. Other people are hypocrites for, say, campaigning against gay rights while themselves being homosexual. One is kind of not cool--the other actively oppresses people. In the grand scheme of hypocrites, I'm not even a blip.

[Hobbs]

Re: Fryk, yes, that's the gist of it.

Re:Hobbs, I can live with that. Someone who claims not to be a hypocrite in anything ever is probably lying to themselves. I am a hypocrite for consuming media that is problematic, while knowing it is problematic. Other people are hypocrites for, say, campaigning against gay rights while themselves being homosexual. One is kind of not cool--the other actively oppresses people. In the grand scheme of hypocrites, I'm not even a blip.

I just don't see how you can be so vehemently obtuse to others when you yourself consume the same type of media. Also, why does it seem only bad to have women-hating songs? There are tons of man-hating ones, but I don't here you complaining about that.

[NodmiTheSellout]

Where am I saying no one can consume it? I'm saying it's got problematic messages and it's up to the individual how they deal with that. I deal with that by consuming what I want to consume, but not dismissing the criticisms against it.

Also, I'm not "complaining" about man-hating songs because I don't know of any off the top of my head. I'm sure they exist, but I barely watch TV and have classic rock radio on in the car, so I don't know about them. Unless you count self-loathing songs written by men as "man-hating", none of the musicians I listen to are guilty of that--not even the few female ones. If they concern you, then talk about them. Me, I can only address what I know about. I don't sit around all day listening to every new release, looking for something objectionable in it. I'm someone who has opinions about the shit that comes to my attention, I'm not some kind of professional progressive or whatever the hell I'd have to be to know about everything problematic in the world ever. I know that I go for a walk and hear "Fuck that bitch, fuck that bitch in the ass, unh, you know what you're good for, yeah" (not a direct transcription obviously) played at street-shaking volumes in a car, and I don't hear "Bring me home some money, be a real man!" in that context (though I imagine there's probably some of that sentiment in country music, maybe?).

Overall, rigid gender roles - whose reinforcement is often what makes offensive lyrics offensive - aren't good no matter which gender they're trying to enforce. Men shouldn't feel wrong for expressing emotions, asking for help, not being good at sports or fixing shit, whatever--just like women shouldn't feel wrong for not wanting kids, for not abiding by the rules of sexual desirability and availability for men, for not being "ladylike", etc. (I kind of have a hard time articulating the things that form gender roles). Both are wrong, it's just that one role tends toward creating power and the other tends toward creating reliance, so the latter's kind of getting the short end of the stick. Getting rid of ridiculous gendered expectations would surely help things along a great deal.

[Hobbs]

What about songs where women are using their sexuality as a way of gaining power and independence from men? Are those still wrong, even though they resort to bringing the issue to being solely about sexual/physical attractiveness?

[Fryk]

See, Hobbs, I see those artists, and those songs in particular, as the worst part of all of it. Dumb guys get the message they want to hear reenforced by the gender in question!

[NodmiTheSellout]

What do you mean by that, Hobbs? Are you talking about women celebrating lesbianism? You'd need to give an example, I listen to about a dozen bands or some such bullshit, I'm fairly ignorant to music that's not thrown in my face (commercials, on the street, admittedly when it's addressed in a feminist blog, etc.).

If it's about using their sexuality as a way to control men, then I think it's. . .not exactly cool, but an understandable reaction to the sexual environment. I won't condone it but I don't feel comfortable condemning it either.

[Hobbs]

What do you mean by that, Hobbs? Are you talking about women celebrating lesbianism? You'd need to give an example, I listen to about a dozen bands or some such bullshit, I'm fairly ignorant to music that's not thrown in my face (commercials, on the street, admittedly when it's addressed in a feminist blog, etc.).

If it's about using their sexuality as a way to control men, then I think it's. . .not exactly cool, but an understandable reaction to the sexual environment. I won't condone it but I don't feel comfortable condemning it either.

Could you please not curse? I'm speaking nicely.

I mean songs like "Single Ladies," "You Oughta Know" "Before he Cheats" to name a few. Only one is technically considered "country."

I agree Fryk, but from what I can gather from Nodmi (pardon if I get this wrong) it is an assumption that only men are capable of being sexist.

[Fryk]

Even better. What I get from her last post is "Women can be sexist, too, but it's totally cool and understandable when they do it."

[Hobbs]

Even better. What I get from her last post is "Women can be sexist, too, but it's totally cool and understandable when they do it."

Hmm, you're right Fryk. I hadn't thought of it that way.

[lordlundar]

Although, most of the ones I've seen depict home invasions, I have seen one about a stalker-ish ex-boyfriend.

That one was actually modified. There's no mention of an ex-boyfriend in it now.

[NodmiTheSellout]

About the profanity. . .sorry, I guess? It's not meant to offend or anything, it's just the way I type. Which should be clear considering that I'm using "bullshit" to refer to my narrow taste in music, not anything you've said. Funny that this is a thread about messages in media, and you seem on the side insinuating that too much is being read into it. . .yet you choose to get offended by the mere presence of profanity - profanity that doesn't even rely on anything actually offensive, but a four-letter word that is arbitrarily "bad" - in a post. WEIRD.

Regarding "it's OK if women are sexist". . .no. I specifically said it was not cool, but that it's understandable in an environment so obsessed with rigid gender roles, etc. etc.. Just like I think it isn't cool to use rape as a metaphor for things that aren't rape, but I understand it. It's not cool to fantasize about killing women because you got your heart broken or whatever, but I understand it. I think sentiments like "all men are cheaters" or "all men are assholes" - I'm assuming those are what's expressed in the mentioned songs - are ridiculous and don't do anything for equality. Two wrongs don't make a right, blah blah.

I don't think female power should be measured by how loudly she can call a man - or "men" - an asshole, without acknowledging the forces that, well, encourage men to be assholes. Which I'm not sure I feel is an appropriate topic for a song. Not that I'm saying no one should write songs about whatever social/political cause strikes their fancy, just that I think a lot of the time it's very awkward to hear people preach shit like that in music. They only get a free pass if their music as a whole is entertaining (which is why I can listen to Refused and not The Lost Patrol Band, for instance).

That's all my subjective opinion of course. . .my point is that I don't expect deep political statements to be made in music. Especially not in pop music (some bands do manage to make moving statements about power and oppression without being expressly a political band, like Swans). And since they're not going to take that level of care, to try and express themselves in a sober, constructive way, rather than in a way that's just going to encourage distrust among human beings, it's irresponsible.

But I do think there's a difference between "I was wronged by a member of this gender, I'm pissed and writing a song, fuck 'em all!" and songs that don't really sprout from any emotional place that I can tell, they're just talking about women in this gross, objectifying way.

Hell, I'll use examples from a musician I like, in general, just some routes his sexism takes I can't listen to, others I can. Nick Cave. Back in the 80s/90s, his sexist sentiments took a road like this:

I cannot blame it all on her
To blame her all would be a lie
For many a night I lay awake
And wished that I could watch her die
See her accusing finger spurt
See flies swarm her hateful eye
To watch her groaning in the dirt
See her clicking tongue crack dry

And although I can objectively acknowledge an undesirable sexist sentiment ("wahh, she doesn't approve of everything I do, that bitch needs to die!"), that strikes me as the sort of shit one writes when bitter about a breakup. It's an emotional reaction, and those aren't always uhh, morally sound, let's say. I can excuse it because he's writing this shit in a song, he's not enacting it on anyone. Ugly, yes. So ugly that I can't appreciate the fire it gives the song? No.

What I can't listen to is some of his newer stuff, for having lyrics like this:

then a black girl with no clothes on
danced across the room
we charted the progress of the planets
around that boogie-woogie moon
I called her my nubian princess
I gave her some sweet-back bad-ass jive
I spent the next seven years between her legs
pining for my wife

because there's a way the songs talk about women that's changed. It's much more casual, describing women as sexual trophies to be won with flattering words (more obvious if I quoted the rest of that song, that pops up in other songs too), which is something I'm just not comfortable with, I can't listen to it.

Overall I don't get on a huge soapbox about sexism in music, as much as I'd get on it about sexism in news reporting (as in the original post) or sexism in advertisement, precisely because of my unequal judgment about it. Some kinds of sexism in music bother me, some don't. If I'm going to give any of it an objective free pass, then all of it should have that. But subjectively, yes, I'm going to acknowledge that I can abide by some sexism and not others. I'll pick my brains about it but ultimately, I acknowledge that there is not some high moral logic behind why I can listen to "LET'S GO KILL IVY!!" and not "I saw this sexy girl...and this sexy girl...and this sexy girl...hey baby, let's do it".