mandatory drug testing for welfare.

[FArchivist]

again people keep forgetting that you don't test every single person individually.

seriously. the military does it all the time - you test one multi-sample and then only test individual bottles IF someone pops positive.

but hey why let logic spoil the fun right? i mean sure... let's say it costs $10 to run a single test and you have 100 people to test. so you assume you'll spend $1000.

wrong. wrong. wrong. wrong. wrong. You only spend that much if you test every single sample.
let's pretend the piss test box holds 10 each. o look then you only test 10 times cos you have 10 boxes. that's just $100, one tenth of the costs.

but hey sure, test every single bottle if you want. me i'd rather be efficient

Actually, you are incorrect on how the military does tests. Here is the procedure:

First, individuals initial the label on their own bottles. The bottles are boxed into batches, and the test administrator begins a chain-of-custody document for each batch. The chain-of-custody requirement continues in the lab as well. People who come in contact with each sample and what exactly they do to the sample are written on the document. All samples are kept with the batch they came in to preserve the chain of evidence.

After arrival at the lab, the batch is separated into its individual samples. The samples then undergo an initial immunoassay screening (using the Olympus AU-800 Automated Chemistry Analyzer). Those that test positive for the presence of drugs at this point undergo the same screen once again. Finally, those that come up positive during two screening tests are put through a much more specific gas chromatography/mass spectrometry test. This test can identify specific substances within the urine samples.

Even if a particular drug is detected, if the level is below a certain threshold, the test result is reported back to the commander as negative.

DoD labs are equipped to test for marijuana, cocaine, amphetamines, LSD, opiates (including morphine and heroin), barbiturates and PCP. But not all samples are tested for all of these drugs. Every sample gets tested for marijuana, cocaine and amphetamines, including ecstasy. Tests for other drugs are done at random on different schedules for each lab. Some laboratories do test every sample for every drug.

Commanders can request samples be tested for steroids. In this case, the samples are sent to the Olympic testing laboratory at the University of California at Los Angeles.

So yes, the DOD tests the samples individually. The samples are sent to the labs in batches and the samples remain together, but the samples are actually tested individually.

[FArchivist]

Preliminary figures on a new Florida law requiring drug tests for welfare applicants show that they are less likely than other people to use drugs, not more. One famous Floridian suggests that it's the people who came up with the law who should be submitting specimens.

Columnist and best-selling author Carl Hiaasen offered to pay for drug testing for all 160 members of the Florida Legislature in what he called "a patriotic whiz-fest." Several of the law's supporters say they're on board.

"There is a certain public interest in going after hypocrisy," Hiaasen said Tuesday, two days after he made his proposal in a Miami Herald column.

[Evandril]

I was in favor of this idea...Until I saw the results. Now I believe it's a waste of money, and needs to be stopped. *shrugs*

[Andara Bledin]

Drugs are used as such a hobgoblin. Those in power can cry "OMG, they use DRUGS!" and their unthinking followers will parrot, "OMG, DRUGS!" and they just go after whoever is pointed at. Even better if the one raising the cry can go "OMG, DRUGS with YOUR MONEY!" while doing his best to make them all ignore the fact that going after those people will not only cost hundreds of times more money, but that money will be going into his pockets.

This is more stupid voters voting for feel-good measures that don't stand up to even moderate scrutiny.

This initiative was already tried, not 2 decades ago, and scrapped for being wasteful and unproductive.

But here we are, going through round 2 because the people who vote are too fucking stupid to do even rudimentary research because they've swallowed the media line of "drugs are bad" and react with fear rather than intelligence.

^-.-^

[Evandril]

Heh, I've got an idea...Have anyone who wants to vote in favor of the idea sign off on a personal tax increase of 10x the amount they owe the government, before all the deductions come in. After all, if paying *3000* times what you're saving is good, only having to give the government 10x in order to help fund it is quite a savings...

Anyone care to put odds on the idea passing?

[bara]

Here is my idea.

Just dont give them money. Instead of EBT cards, lets set up food banks. Any bills they want to pay will have to go through a welfare office first such as heating, electric, house payments, insurance, and other necessities. Sorry, you dont get cable TV or cellphones with data plans.

Clothes.. No problem, they can have goodwill vouchers or something that can only be redeemed for clothes at a specific goodwill with picture verification. (Sorry, but those nikes for 200 dollars a shoe arent necessary.) Personal peeve of mine here... No fancy cadilac, not yours. Get a used car and actually change the oil everynow and then, it works wonders on engine life.

If the whole issue is money, then dont give them any. Problem solved.

[Panacea]

Here is my idea.

Just dont give them money. Instead of EBT cards, lets set up food banks. Any bills they want to pay will have to go through a welfare office first such as heating, electric, house payments, insurance, and other necessities. Sorry, you dont get cable TV or cellphones with data plans.

Clothes.. No problem, they can have goodwill vouchers or something that can only be redeemed for clothes at a specific goodwill with picture verification. (Sorry, but those nikes for 200 dollars a shoe arent necessary.) Personal peeve of mine here... No fancy cadilac, not yours. Get a used car and actually change the oil everynow and then, it works wonders on engine life.

If the whole issue is money, then dont give them any. Problem solved.

I think you've bought into the old Reagan "welfare queen" myth, which has been completely debunked, btw.

There are a number of problems with food banks. Someone has to buy the food. If it's a government run food bank, you have waste and fraud. If it's privately run you have waste and fraud.

If it's donated food, you have no control over what is donated and it tends to be processed food which is high in salt and unhealthy carbs; not great for helping the poor deal with the obesity epidemic.

I favor changing SNAP regulations to prohibit the purchase of any and all processed foods except a very limited selection of cereal, much like WIC does now, and allowing only the purchase of fresh ingredients.

Very few people get what we think of as traditional welfare any more in terms of direct cash payments; that went out with welfare reform in 1996. So they don't just get money, they don't get money for clothes, or for their bills. Some poor get assistance with paying utilities like electric and gas, but only in the winter they're not given money directly.

Few poor people have cell phones with data plans. They usually buy cheap throwaway cells and pre pay for minutes because they can't afford a contract of any kind. And it is often the only phone they have.

Many poor people don't own cars. They use public transportation. If they do own one, it is often used. Buying a new car usually isn't in the cards for these folks who have lousy credit and little income.

Rather than set means testing for the poor or drug testing, investigating fraud and abuse, and then punishing it is a better approach.

[FArchivist]

I favor changing SNAP regulations to prohibit the purchase of any and all processed foods except a very limited selection of cereal, much like WIC does now, and allowing only the purchase of fresh ingredients.

Two problems with this idea:

1) Grocery deserts where the meat is rotten and the vegetables wilted and brown. Yes, they exist. Aside from studies on the subject, I used to live in one. Thank God I had a car and could drive 1.5 hours to a Publix.

2) This assumes that people on WIC have the time to cook fresh ingredients or even the knowledge to do so. And studies of that socioeconomic level have shown that if you plumped down a bunch of fresh vegetables, uncooked rice, and grain in front of that socioeconomic class, the majority of them wouldn't know what the hell to do with it. A lot of the knowledge of how to cook from fresh disappeared in the late 1960s in that particular class.

[Panacea]

Two problems with this idea:

1) Grocery deserts where the meat is rotten and the vegetables wilted and brown. Yes, they exist. Aside from studies on the subject, I used to live in one. Thank God I had a car and could drive 1.5 hours to a Publix.

2) This assumes that people on WIC have the time to cook fresh ingredients or even the knowledge to do so. And studies of that socioeconomic level have shown that if you plumped down a bunch of fresh vegetables, uncooked rice, and grain in front of that socioeconomic class, the majority of them wouldn't know what the hell to do with it. A lot of the knowledge of how to cook from fresh disappeared in the late 1960s in that particular class.

Yeah, I'm aware of the grocery deserts problem. I think the government should encourage local grocery stores in poor neighborhoods with tax breaks or other incentives to fix it.

As for not knowing how to cook with fresh ingredients: not my problem. If the poor want a helping hand, they can learn to help themselves by learning to cook. Honestly, it is not that hard. And you can take basic cooking classes for next to nothing at a community college. I'd support offering free classes to SNAP recipients who say they don't know how to cook to teach them.

[DrFaroohk]

How about lack of a cooking tools? If you can't afford to buy rice, you probably can't afford the $800 stove to cook it on too. There's lots of people who just have a microwave to cook with.

[Dreamstalker]

Rice in a microwave takes some fiddling to get right, but it is possible. I've seen gizmos for cooking rice designed specifically for a microwave, and decent rice cookers can be had for cheap if you know where to look.

[Andara Bledin]

Stove? You don't need a range to cook rice.

I steam rice. In a $20 Oster steamer. Works like a charm. You can get them from any decent department store; they're $18 from Walmart.

A decent low-end gas range is right around $500, which is a lot of money, but if you can't afford the full amount right away, you can always rent to own. I did that when my last fridge suddenly went kaput. Refrigerators are about twice the price of ranges, but my payments were around $17 a week. That's the cost of a single fast food meal for 2 for what is a far better investment.

As for frying, there are electric options such as an electric wok, which would run you about $40, an electric frying pan (which can also do casseroles) also about $40, or an electric skillet, which would run about $20.

There are some incredibly cheap options for making do while saving up for better tools. There's quite a variety of very inexpensive options for those who have just a microwave, and a toaster oven (about $70) easily doubles what you can make on the cheap.

^-.-^

[Panacea]

How about lack of a cooking tools? If you can't afford to buy rice, you probably can't afford the $800 stove to cook it on too. There's lots of people who just have a microwave to cook with.

You can buy a used range for $200, if you really needed to. But even the worst slums usually come supplied with basic working appliances.

Rice steamers are also very cheap.

And you can do amazing things with a microwave.

It's easy to come up with reasons why someone can't do something. Or rather, excuses . . . .

[Mongo Skruddgemire]

And you can do amazing things with a microwave.

2 cups of rice
4 cups of water
a bowl large enough to hold the rice and water and still fit in the microwave
nuke it for 28 minutes on high.

In most microwaves in the 900-1100 watt range this gives perfect rice every time.

Use stock for more flavor or even a couple of boulon (sp?) cubes. Hell even a sprinkle of some cheap herbs like Oregano can spruce it up nicely.

And a lack of a range means nothing. One can buy a inexpensive hot plate or even a camp stove that uses those $2.00 gas bottles. If they have a little more money they can get a propane tank and the adapter.

As Panacea said, "It's easy to come up with reasons why someone can't do something. Or rather, excuses . . . ."

I've been there. I've been on food assistance. It's not fun. But you learn how to do more for less if you really want to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. I learned how to cook while on assistance. I learned how to make what little we had taste good enough to enjoy as opposed to just something that can sustain life. The Dollar Stores were a god send. Sure the herbs may have been a little beyond their prime and were not as good as the stuff I use now, but it was good enough.

I would also make use of the public library to get recipes. Spend the morning job hunting and putting in resumes, then spend the afternoon looking up recipes online or in the racks.

I really hated those woman-oriented magazines but damn they had some good ideas on stretching a food budget and how to make some darn tasty meals that were satisfying. I became the master of the casserole and the stew during those two years.

Anyone who really wants to can learn this stuff even if they have hardly anything. All it takes is the desire to not sit on one's ass and whine about their lot in life. I'll admit that I did my fair share of that as well, but I and many others like me whined, bitched and moaned and then did something about it.

[Panacea]

I was a poor college student when I moved out of my parents house and rented a place with a couple of college friends.

My friend Cathy was a shrewd money manager. I learned a lot from her. Things like,

"Shop where old people and poor people shop to get the best prices."
"Make enough portions for several meals, and freeze them separately to microwave on the go."
"If you can make it yourself, it will probably be cheaper than what you'd pay buying it at the grocery store."

She taught me how to make fresh bread (though I admit, I dropped doing that after she moved out), can fruit, and make fresh marinara sauce. I still have a lot of her recipes.

It's not difficult. It can be time consuming, which is why the thing to do is make a big batch on your day off and freeze most of it so you can heat it up quick on those days when you're just too damn tired to cook.