Mexico protests border patrol firing tear gas across border

[rahmota]

Apparently The mexican government is getting bent about the US Border Patrol firing tear gas canister across the border at youth who have been throwing rocks and in some cases bottles at american Border Patrol Agents trying to stop illegals from crossing the border near the town of Tijuana.

http://www.reuters.com/article/polit...e=politicsNews

Launching tear gas does not contribute in any way to a climate of understanding and collaboration," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement issued late on Thursday.

Um lets see here. People including kids and teens are throwing rocks and bottles across the US border at patrol agents. Patrol agents are trying to uphold US law by stopping illegal immigrants basically invading our country. They fire a tchnically non-lethal tear gas grenade back across the border to try and drive the rock throwers away. The mexican government protests and calls it bad form.

Umm what exactly do they want the Border patrol to do? Use live ammo? I mean there are countries in this world that would be lobbing fragmentation AP grenades back at them or opening up with the 60s. At least tear gas is mostly non-lethal.

Maybe if Mexico would try and slow down or stop the flood of people trying to invade the US then we wouldnt have to start building a frakkin wall along our border and use tear gas.

This is rather interesting though and slightly humorous in a odd way. Here we are with our military bulk 1000s of miles away from home and we are having a border skirmish with Mexico. So do oyou think the Border Patrol can handle the Mexican Army or what? Should the Border Patrol go over to live rouds to stop them or should we just say forget it and open the doors wide.

Personally I see this getting worse before it gets better and there will be live rounds fired again.

[AFPheonix]

The reason we're getting mass migration up from Central and South America and Mexico are multifold.

One, mass corruption, at least in Mexico, makes it difficult for people to get much done without graft. Same thing with a choking buraucracy.

Two, poor development in rural areas keeps the poor impoverished and prevents a growing middle class. There's a huge disparity between the rich and poor in the countries south of us.

Three, organized crime, especially in Mexico, means less farming for decent cash crops and more farming for plants for drugs. Also, extortion and further corruption.

Four, NAFTA lends a hand in undercutting farmers, since it's cheaper to import our corn than it is to grow their own.

I'm sure there's more, but I think we'd be better off helping Mexico and other countries address those problems than working on superficial things like lobbing tear gas over the border and building walls. Ultimately, working towards long term solutions fixes the short term ones.

[CancelMyService]

I'm sure there's more, but I think we'd be better off helping Mexico and other countries address those problems than working on superficial things like lobbing tear gas over the border and building walls. Ultimately, working towards long term solutions fixes the short term ones.

This is all true, but it's easier for politicians to score points by saying how they're TUFF ON IMMYGRANTZ rather than forming policy that solves the root problems that cause illegal immigration in the first place.

I guess actual problem solving isn't sexy enough for sound bytes or to rally the base.

[Boozy]

Um lets see here. People including kids and teens are throwing rocks and bottles across the US border at patrol agents. Patrol agents are trying to uphold US law by stopping illegal immigrants basically invading our country. They fire a tchnically non-lethal tear gas grenade back across the border to try and drive the rock throwers away. The mexican government protests and calls it bad form.

I understand where you're coming from, but there is a big difference between teenage kids throwing rocks and US government representatives throwing tear gas.

These teenagers do not represent the Mexican government or their foreign policy. The border agents are employed by and carry out the policy of the US government and its people.

The US needs to tread very carefully here. Lesser things have been construed as acts of war. I don't see that happening here, but I can understand both sides.

[Seshat]

I guess actual problem solving isn't sexy enough for sound bytes or to rally the base.

That is SO true.

As long as the USA (and the rest of the developed world) presents a wealthy image and looks like it's a great place to live, then people whose living environment sucks will try to go there.

Would you like to live in a shantytown in a corrupt city, or would you prefer to live in a climate-controlled apartment in Midwest USA? Where would you prefer to raise your children?

Now me - I've had Google headhunt me and try to get me to move to the USA. No thanks, I prefer it here. But then, I've got a comfortable home that's appropriate to the climate, I've got good public transport, good medical care, and all the perquisites of a first-world country.

Get the developing world up to at least 'second world' standard, and you'll cut the flow of illegal immigrants. Give them the same living standards as the USA, and immigration will approximately equal emigration.

(Of course, a lot of ecologists tell us that the Earth simply won't support six billion people at US living standards. So there's a pretty problem.)

[AFPheonix]

This is all true, but it's easier for politicians to score points by saying how they're TUFF ON IMMYGRANTZ rather than forming policy that solves the root problems that cause illegal immigration in the first place.

I guess actual problem solving isn't sexy enough for sound bytes or to rally the base.

As soon as idiots can manage to vote for someone who actually understands and can implement policy instead of "for the guy I'd like to go have a beer with", we can get some shit done.
Until then, we're fucked.

[rahmota]

I'll agree that the root causes of a lot of the world's problems need to be dealt with in the long term. Unfortunately it is kinda hard to deal with the long term issues when you are flooded with short term problems. Sort of like trying to change the oil on a car when you're still driving it. Gotta get the problem stopped or at least controlled enough to be able to affect it.

Yes Mexico has a buttload of problems. So does america and the options are if they wont clean up their house then we have to do it for them. But we have to get our house cleaned up first.

I'll agree that sounding tough on immigration is cool in the minds of politicians. But something does need to be done. I would love to see a program where immigration can be dealt with in a humanely and legal manner but the way to do that is definately beyond me. And I imagine it actually is beyond a lot of the people that are supposed to be thinking of this too. Do you have any ideas?

Boozy: yeah I understand that things are rather provactive right now. But both sides are being provacative. The mexicans are throwing stones at US agents so that drug dealers, illegals and who knows what else can sneak across the border while the BP is dealing with the rock throwers. And instead of addressing the issues that AFP listed they whine and complain about the US inhumane treatment. Lob a few frags across the border the way the rest of the world would deal with this sort of situation or a rocket attack or two like what happens in Palestine and that would give them a reason to whine.

I'll agree that the US needs to tread carefully here. the way the international community regards the US is already on thin ice and the US keeps tap dancing. But I sincerely doubt this administration is goig to back down on their policy and I know from what I've read a lot of the border states are not going to be happy to back down even if the feds do. Whomever gets into the white house next is going to inherit a mess and depending on how they do it they may wind up peeving off the border states or continuing the situation iwth Mexico. Either way as usual thigns are goin to get uglier before they better I am betting.

I would like to see this resolved peacefully. I would not really like to see a wall or DMZ built between Mexico and the US. but if Mexico wont clean house and get their people under control or do somethign besides help these people come up into the US then we do have the right to defend our borders.

Seshat:

(Of course, a lot of ecologists tell us that the Earth simply won't support six billion people at US living standards. So there's a pretty problem.)

Thats okay. thanks to the republicans wh're workign on lowering our standards quite nicely....

[Greenday]

I like how the Mexican government is whining about us using as humane as possible weapons to protect ourselves from VIOLENT protesters. Alls I hear is whine, whine, whine, but I don't quite see the Mexican government trying to do anything about it. As you pointed out, rahmota, we COULD be using lethal force like most other countries.

As for us going to all these other countries and helping them solve their problems, America has a crapload of its own problems to deal with. Our problems need to be our #1 priority. As I've always said, people can't help you with your problems if you refuse to help yourself.

[CancelMyService]

What I want to know, is how did immigrants from Mexico suddenly become like the largest problem of our times only in the last 3-4 years or so? If this was such a major ordeal, how come it didn't become the central focus of the Republican party until they needed a scapegoat after literally everything they've done blew up in their faces?


I guess Reefer Madness: The Musical had it right -

Lecturer: When danger's near, exploit their fear!
Parents: The end will justify the means!

[AFPheonix]

Yep, that's pretty much it. Of course, Canadian illegals are all right because, well, they're white. Asian illegals are ok because they blend in well and make us excellent americanized chinese food.

Them thar hispanics though, are stealin' our jobs! (shakes fist)

Getting my tongue out of my cheek now, however, I DO feel bad for a lot of the families who get in the way of the people coming up. They do have a legitimate claim about being victimized by illegals as they have been stolen from and pets killed to keep them quiet.

Work with your eye on the horizon, and the stuff by your feet will get fixed too, and probably better than it would have if you'd focused on your feet to begin with.

[Greenday]

It's kind of hard to compare illegal Mexican immigrants to illegal Canadian immigrants. I mean, what's the ratio of those two? Gotta be a big difference.

[Seshat]

As for us going to all these other countries and helping them solve their problems, America has a crapload of its own problems to deal with. Our problems need to be our #1 priority. As I've always said, people can't help you with your problems if you refuse to help yourself.

I disagree in part: I think you can help other people with their problems while resolving your own. However, I accept that other people don't necessarily agree with me. I also accept that moving governments is a huge task.

That said, there are small things that make a big difference. Perhaps instead of a string of Christmas lights, you could buy mosquito netting or schoolbooks for someone in need. I often buy Christmas and birthday presents from Oxfam Australia's fair trade shop. Here's some American Fair Trade shops. You may already be buying from them, or have some of them conveniently close and no dearer than comparable non-Fair Trade products.

[AFPheonix]

I'm having trouble finding stats, but I did find this:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5312900

[Sylvia727]

Maybe I'm seeing this too simplisticly, but... one group of people attacked another group. If one threw a rock hard enough and hit someone in the head, they could die. So it was a very real threat. The attacked group responded with less violence (i.e. less risk of death) than was shown by their attackers. This is the behavior I expect from my government's representatives--to solve a problem by being the better person.

If someone sees a flaw in that argument, please, point it out to me. Because I can't see anything wrong in that scenario.

[rahmota]

Okay I dont know about and cannot speak for others but I've been concerned about illegals for a time. Its just recently when things have started getting a bit more blatent and in your face with "immigrant rights" that its become a lot more of a burning issue.

I personally have no issue with an immigrant based on planet or country of origin, skin color, religion or whatever. There are rules to get into the country. If they cannot play by the rules to even get into the country then why can I trust someone to play by the rules about anything else? A lot of them may be coming here to just try and better themselves or try for their share of the already shrinking american pie but theres still a good percentage who arnt but the whole sneaking into the country taints anythign else they ever do.

I have no idea what the ratio is to southward illegals crossing from canada and the northbound illegals coming from mexico. I can't find much if any info on that other than it seem like more are coming from the south. Either because thats where all the attention is or because there is a real difference.

AFP: Exactly a lot of the ranches and farms on the border have had major issues not only with the pets getting stolen, eaten or guard animals getting killed, stolen vehicles. But also trash, there has been dead people found who couldnt make it across the desert and I mean its just an ugly situation from everythign I have read or seen. And not just the minutemen are getting bent about this.

Seshat: Part of the problem is that a lot of people are having trouble keeping their own personal heads above water so trying to help others is problematic if it means goign out of their way. Other people higher up the social ladder are wanting to keep their own stuff together or dont care about their own countrymates so how can they be expected to do anythign for someone from another coutry and lets not even start about how big business and big government work hand in hand to not care about anythign other than their own concerns. This is a very selfish and shallow world we live in for the most anymore.

Sylvia: One of the problems is that this is going across an international border. Which complcates thigns a bit. Basically you have the gist of things though. If it was two groups from the same country then there might not be the same kind of concern/issues depending on how thigns went down, but since it is the nationals of one nation attackign the government agents of another in support of an illegal action then it makes the situation a bit more complicated. Which means that things need to be treated with sensitivity and tact. Not something this country is famous for in its international dealings.

Especially as King George is wantign another 2 billion in his budget to make the borders more secure and calls it a homeland security issue. Wanting to expand the fencing and have more agents as well as more beds for illegals awaiting deportation. They are hoping to have 670 miles of fencing up by the end of this year. This on a 1900 mile border.