Mexico protests border patrol firing tear gas across border

[ThePhoneGoddess]

I disagree in part: I think you can help other people with their problems while resolving your own. However, I accept that other people don't necessarily agree with me. I also accept that moving governments is a huge task.

Assisting other countries is fine, but what Greenday is getting at are major problems we're specifically having here in the US right now. This one of the main reasons for the dissatisfaction Americans of all political persuasions are feeling. We are putting ourselves seriously into debt---our national deficit is huge---and the majority of that money is going to countries our military is occupying. Meanwhile we have

1)a major, historic, culturally important city, destroyed more than 2 years ago, that we haven't even begun to clean up. The government beauracracy and red tape holding up the rebuilding of New Orleans is astounding. The government seems to think that American businesses will deal with it. Unfortunately, New Orleans is a historically economy-poor but culturally-rich city---American businesses have no interest in helping poor and middle class people rebuild their houses. There is nothing in it for them. It needs serious government programs for at least a few years to help the city get back on its feet. Nearly all of the assisted lower income housing has been destroyed. The prime real estate that housing occupied, many in the most historic parts of the city, is now being fought over by corporations who want to build condos, casinos, and other things for the wealthy. The locals are fighting tooth and nail, but they do not have the power or capital of corporations, and the government is ignoring the whole mess.

2) infrastructure that is in bad shape. We had a major bridge collapse in Minnesota which only highlighted the problem. We have been diverting funding from our infrastructure to other things, pork barrels, politician's pet projects, etc. for over 20 years. Parts of the country experience rolling blackouts and water contamination from overtaxed, overextended sewage and electric grid systems, and we have a lot of highways, bridges, and other structures in serious need of maintenance that is not getting done. In fact our aging infrastructure partly caused the New Orleans disaster---the levees were old and neglected, and they failed. Last month my uncle's entire neighborhood in Fernley, Nevada, was flooded when an aged levee broke during a storm.

3) Our schools are so short of funding that the teachers send kids with lists of things to buy first week of school. In some places they have to put things like toilet paper on the lists---because the school doesn't have enough money to stock it! This happens to my cousins and my sister's kids every year. The teachers here are paid so little that many of them can't even afford to buy a house for themselves, they have to go through charitable programs. We have a terrible teacher shortage right now; it's especially bad in places with a high cost of living, as the teachers can't even afford to rent in the places they teach.

If these problems are not *seriously* dealt with in the next couple of decades, the standard of living in America is going to plummet.

[Boozy]

It is undoubtedly true that the US is up shit creek without a paddle.

But I'm not letting them off the hook for years of economic warfare perpetrated against developing nations around the world, including Mexico. I'm not going to get into it much here, because it would seriously derail the thread, but US foreign policy has played a huge role in creating the corrupt governments and unstable economies in Central and South America - where most illegal immigrants come from. I'm not overstating it when I say that in many cases, these people are fleeing situations of America's making.

By all means, focus on your own problems. But could you at least have some compassion for those left in your wake?

[AFPheonix]

Not only that, but a lot of the fixes that would help us would help a lot of our other neighbors. The farm bill is a prime example. Fixing that problem would not only reinvigorate parts of our own economy and middle section of the country, it would help out the countries we're undercutting.

A lot of our problems come from lawmakers who are not taking a long term view of how to interact and deal with our own problems and those of our neighbors. It's not popular to take the time to do something right that may not show the fruits of labor right away. Unfortunately, it's still the right way to do it.

[Seshat]

Meanwhile we have

1)a major, historic, culturally important city, destroyed more than 2 years ago, that we haven't even begun to clean up.

My immediate and first thought was actually Baghdad. Being part of the cradle of civilisation and all. But I do agree that New Orleans is also important.

<snippage>
If these problems are not *seriously* dealt with in the next couple of decades, the standard of living in America is going to plummet.

Agreed. And it's an issue of spending priorities: I agree that your wealthiest people are screwing over the rest of you.

But please note when I suggested things that individuals can do, I suggested forgoing a luxury - a string of Christmas lights - rather than a necessity. I didn't suggest that people who are trying to choose between ramen and heating should buy ramen for someone else: and I would never do so.

America - as a whole - has excess. It's distributed poorly within America, and I do believe that the whole world, including America, would benefit if some of it was distributed outside America as well.

Australia also has excess, though less than America does. As my health permits, I do attempt to help distribute Australia's excess better both within and outside Australia. I do this by contacting my local politicians (and sometimes other peoples' politicians) and drawing their attention to problems both local and international. Or I assist lobby groups that act in my spheres of interest, taking some of the administrative work from people who are better than I at asking corporations for charity funding. (I'm lousy at that.)

I know that those techniques are supposed to work in America as well as here. I don't know what the reality is, but those of you who are interested may want to give it a try.

Plus, of course, those of you who are interested may want to look into whether you can get Fair Trade goods as cheaply and easily as other goods; and those of you who can afford luxuries may consider (only consider! It's your money, your choice) the luxury of buying schoolbooks for a kid who can't otherwise afford them.

[Greenday]

Oddly enough, this got brought up in my Intro to Microbiology course. My teacher compared illegal immigrants to bacteria. What's wrong with the two? They both are harming the bodies they are entering.

Ok, ok, crappy explanation, I just found it hilarious that he started talking about illegal immigration in that class.

[Boozy]

My teacher compared illegal immigrants to bacteria.

What a charming man. I'll bet his parents are so proud to have raised their son to equate human beings with bacteria.

[Greenday]

What a charming man. I'll bet his parents are so proud to have raised their son to equate human beings with bacteria.

He's from somewhere in Africa. I can't quite remember which country though. Not sure if he mentioned.

Actually, there are a lot of parallels between humans and bacteria. And he DOES have a point. Microbes and illegal immigrants both invade into areas without permission. That's about as far as into illegal immigration as he got though. I just wanted to mention it because of how ironic that he mentioned illegal immigration, in a microbiology course, while we were having this discussion.

[AFPheonix]

If he's going to describe immigrants to bacteria, I'd probably go with the symbiotic relationship we have with out intestinal flora.
It's a nasty job, but somebody's gotta do it. And without them, we'd have some seriously runny shit goin' on.

Good lord, he should stick with what he knows. If he wants to soapbox, rant about people not finishing courses of antibiotics or doctors who prescribe antibiotics for every little thing, regardless of whether it's an actual bacterial infection or not.

Also as a microbiologist, he should know that the vast majority of the bacteria in and on our bodies are harmless, if not beneficial.

[Amethyst Hunter]

If he's going to describe immigrants to bacteria, I'd probably go with the symbiotic relationship we have with out intestinal flora.
It's a nasty job, but somebody's gotta do it. And without them, we'd have some seriously runny shit goin' on.

Also as a microbiologist, he should know that the vast majority of the bacteria in and on our bodies are harmless, if not beneficial.

A lot of immigrants, illegal or not, will do jobs that the average American won't do: stuff like cleaning restrooms and the like.

I disagree with giving illegals health benefits like cheap/free medical care (unless it's a serious life-or-death emergency); I agree that if one can afford to do so, one should attempt immigration through legal channels, and there should be programs (and one such has already been proposed through active military service) that help illegals legitimately obtain legal status. I also agree that regardless of the immigration situation in any part of the world, immigrants should attempt to learn some of the country's primary language for dealing with work-related and other such matters - doesn't mean they can't speak their native tongue at home or with friends, but assimilation will go easier if they also know their adopted home's primary language.

As far as the Mexican border goes, as others have mentioned, it's a pretty shitty standard of living down there no matter what the pretty tourism pictures try to paint. Female immigrants are told to take, even given, birth control for their trek across the border - rape is such a serious problem there that it is a GIVEN most if not all females coming into the US will at the VERY LEAST experience an attempted assault of some type. Human trafficking (along with drugs and God knows what else) is a big business in that locale.

[rahmota]

The issues TPG pointed out are the tip of the iceberg here. yeah the US may have done quite a bit of stuff over the years. But if the US tried to fix each and every problem that it caused that would bankrupt us more than ever. And the prblems here at home would still never get taken care of or fixed.

Yeah compassion is a wonderful luxury that the world could use a lot more of. but its a luxury that only those who are not already living in a world of shit can have. People who are barely keeping their own head above watter have to think about securing their own position before they can reach out and help anyone else or they are both screwed.

Also to be perfectly honest intellectually I or the average american knows there are people in mexico or south america living in midevil conditions or worse. That yeah the US did a lot of BS over the years. Oops oh damn too bad so did a lot of other nations in that regard over the history of humanity. We can't go around fixing everything, even the stuff we as a nation did, singlehandedly. Esocially when our own house is in such a messed up state.

Our own infrastructure has been abused, ignored and forgotten about. our own social structures are in a pitiful state. This country needs a major enema thanks to the raping and pilalging of things by our ow social elites. And if we dont fix the problems in this country soon then immigrants are probably going to be coming up here goin WTF? We left these conditions to come here? If things dont get worse.

And around here I dont see any illegals working the fields. I dont see mexicans cleaning toilets. I see american citizens doing these jobs. The whole BS of americans being "too proud or "too good" for those kinds of jobs at least in the area I live and move in is just BS. Maybe in the cities thats true. Maybe elsewhere in the country thats true. just not around here. Folks are more than willing to work to earn their keep in this world.

And i gotta agree with greenday that his professor has a point. Infectious bacteria and Illegal immigrants do have similar behavioral patterns. Yeah making the comparison in a microbiology class was kinda wonky but still apt.

[Seshat]

Our own infrastructure has been abused, ignored and forgotten about. our own social structures are in a pitiful state.

If the majority of your infrastructure is as poor and neglected as the Louisiana levees, then yeah - you've got a good point.

From the outside, America looks wealthy, with extensive infrastructure and a good deal of luxury. Even someone from another comparatively wealthy country who's been to the States a few times (me) sees a good deal of wealth and luxury, even among the lower working class. If that's illusory, though - you've got a lot to do locally.

You have the only wealth that really matters: well-watered arable land. Protect that: whether things go well or poorly for you in the rest of this century, you'll need it.

Good luck.

[rahmota]

yeah a lot of it is very illusionary wealth. You got the got rocks who actually have wealth. you got the middle class trying to look like they are one of the got rocks. The lower middle class trying to hang on to what they got and not fall down the ladder (Thats where I am) while still having something nice now and again. You got the upper poor trying to look like their middle class at bet to trying to avoid being totally rama noodlepack for the family dinner. you got the poor who are just trying to stay alive then you got the under the overpass crowd that everyone else jus wants to forget about or hide from the tourists.

You got multimillion dollar sport stadiums beinng built on taxpayer money while the streets to there are filled with potholes and the bridges are left to rust. The regulatory agencies in charge of inspecting things are overworked, underbudgeted, understaffed. The freeways where built in the fifties and sixties. The air control system is a hodgepodge of ultra tech going down to 40s tech. The power grid began back in the 30s. Bridge built to carry hundreds of cars a day are being used to carry thousands a day.

And as for the land with urban sprawl and "required" development of the infrastructure and all sorts of small noodle farms and housing developments for the growing population even that is in danger. No one wants to live in the city as the schools suck, crime sucks, health care sucks, emergency services suck. But they dont want to adapt and take care of the country they want to brign the city to the country and somehow think it'll all work out and be good when they do so.

Things may look pretty and all peachy keen but its like a used car you scrape the fresh paint off and you find a lot of rust spots and bondo. And I mean yeah compassion would be wonderful buts its a luxury a lot of people cant afford. I mean if you're on a sinking ship you have to make sure you have you and your people safe and secure first before you can go save the world.

[Seshat]

Mmm. I'd noticed the urban sprawl issue. You've got the only wealth that really matters - arable land - and you treat it like dirt.

(Yeah, okay. I love using that pun. Sue me.)

I guess part of the problem is that I tend to assume that the multimillion dollar stadiums are a use of excess wealth. Around here, people will cheerfully nag until the potholes are fixed: go anywhere, and there's neat patches of bitumen, or orange spray-painted markings showing that the council road crew (or sidewalk crew) has been by planning the next round of patches, or witches' hats and neat-edged holes, or just the beginnings of wear showing, before it deserves the orange-paint treatment.

I guess I sometimes forget how different our cultures are.

[protege]

If you really want to see bad roads, come to Pennsylvania. Seriously, our potholes are legendary. Part of the problem is PennDOT. These fools spend more time leaning on shovels, than actually using the damn things. The other, is that our roads were built to save cash. The asphalt and concrete isn't quite thick enough--because of that, it tends to wear out faster. While we're dissing our favorite transit agency...keep in mind too, that the roads in many areas around Pittsburgh, simply weren't designed to handle the traffic.

Now they're trying to expand the highway system, including widening our parkway to 6 lanes...and are running into congestion problems. How? At the time, very little was along the road. Now, there are shopping centers, office buildings, and other things that *cannot* be moved to accommodate.

We have the illusion of wealth here too. Take downtown Pittsburgh. Sure, it *looks* wealthy--lots of skyscrapers, expensive cars, etc. However, the city has been having some serious cashflow problems, mainly because the wealthy do *not* live inside the city limits. Many stay out in the 'burbs.

As such, many of the city neighborhoods are falling apart. Some of it is because there simply isn't the cash to repair things; some of it is because the people there have no pride in their neighborhood. The rest, is because the neighborhood is a crime-infested shithole--why would anyone want to take a risk to invest there (by buying a building, or rehabbing a place) when it'll probably get vandalized or have a hard time getting residents?

[Greenday]

If you really want to see bad roads, come to Pennsylvania. Seriously, our potholes are legendary. Part of the problem is PennDOT. These fools spend more time leaning on shovels, than actually using the damn things. The other, is that our roads were built to save cash. The asphalt and concrete isn't quite thick enough--because of that, it tends to wear out faster. While we're dissing our favorite transit agency...keep in mind too, that the roads in many areas around Pittsburgh, simply weren't designed to handle the traffic.

Seriously, just look at the turnpike. It's a bunch of potholes covered with plywood.

Ok, ok, maybe not plywood, but the section I always drive on is in bad shape. It's always under construction, and it never seems like there is any progress with it. What's going on with that?