Born in the US but denied citizenship?

[Greenday]

Haven't we tried that already?

Not that I'm aware of.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

I was of the impression that the central idea of this country is something along the lines of "Everyone is basically the same, and shall be treated as such"

Illegal immigrants are criminals, and should be treated as such until such a time when their situation changes or the policy of he nation changes. Absent the commission of a crime, I see no reason to nitpick here and there between people who are 'good enough' to get all the rights, what rights the people who don't qualify don't deserve and what arbitrary measurement should be used to make the decision.

[jackfaire]

People have already addressed that if you failed the test you would continue to live in America but with fewer rights

Sorry wasn't clear enough if an immigrant breaks the law and aren't a legal citizen they can and if the crime is severe enough will be deported.

If no one is a citizen does no one get deported or does everyone get deported and if so where too if you were born here.

[AdminAssistant]

Not that I'm aware of.

Actually, for a long time we did have a system where a portion of the residents had "limited" rights and the rest had full rights. Well, actually, we still don't have true equal rights for all citizens, but we're getting there.

I just want to know, who gets to make the decision on who gets to be a citizen and who doesn't? Where's the dividing line and who gets to cross it? Does a mentally handicapped person get to be a citizen, since they can't be in the military and may not be able to pass a test?

Call me a bleeding heart liberal, but I would rather offer rights to those that do not deserve them than deny rights to those that do. Saying that only certain blessed individuals can attain "full" citizenship (whatever that means) is at best nationalist and at worst racist and xenophobic.

[Greenday]

I think the difference is what you and I consider to be people who deserve them. Being born isn't special. Everyone does it. So why should you be rewarded for it?

[Wingates_Hellsing]

First of all, everyone is born somewhere on the planet, but only a few are born on US soil. Secondly, since residence is the easiest rule of thumb to go by when determining citizenship, it only follows that people born here are citizens seeing as how a persons place of birth is generally also the place they end up living.

Everyone deserves rights, the same rights as everyone else. The question is not whether or not a person deserves rights, it's whether or not it's any given nation's responsibility to provide for those rights they see fit to provide.

In theory, at least, the position of the US government is that all people are equals. As equals, everyone therefore deserves the same rights as everyone else.

[Skelly]

Actually you could but you had to be licensed to do so and it was easier to be approved if you did service. The assumption being that there is strict tests and such done before your approved for parenthood.



Also if you had to take a citizenship test to be a citizen here when your born here? Where would you be deported to?

Yeah, nothing like that is mentioned in the book. But then, Verhoeven admitted to not having read the entire book. And the movie comes out depicting this future society as semi-fascist...

[Rapscallion]

Actually, for a long time we did have a system where a portion of the residents had "limited" rights and the rest had full rights.

Are you thinking of indentured servants, slaves, or women before suffrage? All of the above?

Rapscallion

[AdminAssistant]

All of the above?

All of it, exactly. If you're born in this country, then you deserve all the rights (and responsibilities) that go along with that. If I don't get to be a "full citizen," that means I don't have to pay as many taxes, right? I certainly wouldn't be drafted. I don't have as many rights, then I don't have as many responsibilities.

[Fryk]

Thank you, Admin, that's what I was trying to get at earlier.

[jackfaire]

I certainly wouldn't be drafted.

Small thing. You wouldn't be drafted anyway.

[infinitemonkies]

Wait, there's something I'm missing here.

What exactly is the problem with illegal immigrants other than being in America illegally? Is it an issue of employment and/or taxation? Over-population? Welfare & social services?

It seems to me the answer to illegal immigration problems is to make legal immigration much easier, not harder, but attach a few conditions.
1. Standard security screening that any foreign visitor goes through.
2. Here's a travel visa. Go anywhere you want, except for cities that already have a large population. Let's arbitrarily say any city with a population over 100,000 is off limits to live in.
3. Find a job within 3 months. If so, travel visa becomes work visa, if not, go home and try again when you've learned a marketable skill.
4. Work a job, pay your taxes, do not get convicted of a criminal offence. Manage that for another arbitrary amount of time, say 5 years.
5. Take a written citizenship test which covers American history, geography, politics, and by extention, literacy. Take the test in english. Pass, even though the average natural American would fail horribly.
6. Congratulations, you're an American citizen. Next!

[daleduke17]

All of it, exactly. If you're born in this country, then you deserve all the rights (and responsibilities) that go along with that. If I don't get to be a "full citizen," that means I don't have to pay as many taxes, right? I certainly wouldn't be drafted. I don't have as many rights, then I don't have as many responsibilities.

You should only be given full rights if you're born in this country to citizens. If my parents had illegally crossed into any other country in the world and then I was born, would I have been a citizen of that country?

[Rapscallion]

You should only be given full rights if you're born in this country to citizens. If my parents had illegally crossed into any other country in the world and then I was born, would I have been a citizen of that country?

Hmm, worked for the folk aboard the Mayflower...

Also, all those convicts we sent to Australia, and ...

Rapscallion

[linguist]

You should only be given full rights if you're born in this country to citizens. If my parents had illegally crossed into any other country in the world and then I was born, would I have been a citizen of that country?

depends on the country. these are a few of the countries that grant citizenship jus soli (by being born on the country's soil), regardless of the parents' citizenship:

Antigua and Barbuda
Argentina
Barbados
Belize
Bolivia
Brazil
Canada
Chile (children of transient foreigners or of foreign diplomats on assignment in Chile only upon request)
Colombia
Dominica
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
El Salvador
Fiji
Grenada
Guatemala
Guyana
Honduras
Jamaica
Lesotho
Malaysia
Mexico
Nicaragua
Pakistan
Panama
Paraguay
Peru
Saint Christopher and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Trinidad and Tobago
United States
Uruguay
Venezuela

a few others operate on modified jus soli, in which one parent must be either a permanent resident or have lived in the country for a specified period of time:

United Kingdom
Australia
Republic of Ireland
New Zealand
South Africa
France

also, while it wasn't listed in the site i found, i'm pretty sure turkey also recognizes citizenship jus soli, as i think we at one time had a member here who was born in turkey to american parents and said he could never visit the country because they would press him into compulsory military service.