Some risky legislation

[IDrinkaRum]

Seshat!!! I'm sorry. I didn't mean for you to bow out of the discussion. It's just ... aaaah ... what the heck. I'm bowing out too. I just don't like the fact that in America there are some people who think the Government needs to give them everything without them having to work for it. (i.e., Welfare which was started to get people out the holes they were in during the Great Depression, meant as a one-time thing that would be discontinued after the Depression was over with but never went away). But that's just me and that's a discussion for another topic.

[Seshat]

No, no - no need to take it that way! I'm bowing out of the universal-health-care thing because of lack of knowledge, not lack of interest! I appreciate knowing and understanding your reasons - at least to the extent that someone without deep knowledge of your culture can understand.

As for welfare loungers: we have them too. I think every culture does. People who aren't socially conscious or aware enough to realise that civilisations work because everyone who is capable of contributing in some way does so. Or people who do realise that, but don't care and are happy to sponge off other peoples' work, and make the whole civilisation a little bit poorer.

Australia's attitude towards that is (or seems to me to be) 'well, we have a percentage of louts and assholes that bludge off the system, but better to protect almost everyone and have a few freeloaders than to cause innocent people to suffer for the sake of dumping the freeloaders'.

It's a social choice, and only the society itself can make the choice: outsiders shouldn't make it for them. Australia needs to decide what level of cover to give Australians, America needs to decide what level of cover to give Americans.

Australia's welfare office does try to weed out the bludgers. I'm in the process of obtaining disability pension myself: and I had to have a doctor vouch for me, with two specialists backing him up. The doctor and specialists also had to state the likely duration of the illness. On top of that, an officer of our welfare system had an interview with me, to see for herself what I can and can't do. Once they're satisfied that I'm genuinely ill and not a bludger, they'll keep paying me until my doctor tells them I'm well, until I manage to find some sort of paying work I can do that puts me over the allowable-income threshold - or until I phase into aged pension. Which, unfortunately, is most likely.
(At least I've found ways I can do good things for society, even if they're small and unpaid. But I digress.)

Um.

Oh yeah, I remember one of my objections to employer-provided health care. When there's an employee's market, people can pick and choose employers based, in part, on their health care plan. But when it's an employER's market, the employers can - and probably will - scant on the health care. And people will take the jobs anyway.

Edit to add: also, employer-based health care means that people who are brilliant at and love careers (such as waiting or bartending) which culturally don't include 'benefits' have to choose between doing what they're good at and love, or having health care. Another thing I think is not really right.

And switching aspects of the topic again.

Everyone needs health care, and everyone needs the same thing for their basic (not luxury level) health care. If everyone who is capable of work and can currently find work is contributing to the health care system, then a significant proportion of the people who are left are going to be in need of the health care system - probably desperate need.

So let's take a look at the freeloaders. Many of them will be basically healthy, and therefore not using the system much.

Some will probably be hypochondriac or suffering Munchausens or some other attention/psychiatric disorder - but then, those are sick and need the system, and can be treated.

Effectively, an employer-based system bars the unemployable, those who can't find employment, those who get jobs without benefits for whatever reason, and the self-employed, from the health care system. And one of your reasons seems to be that you don't want to provide it to the group of freeloaders.

I'd suggest doing some research. Figure out what percentage of the not-insured population fits into the contributing/would-if-they-could category, and what percentage are freeloaders. Decide for yourself if you want to penalise X% of innocents for the sake of barring Y% of freeloaders.

Not my society. Not my decision. Yours.

[Amethyst Hunter]

better to protect almost everyone and have a few freeloaders than to cause innocent people to suffer for the sake of dumping the freeloaders'.

Everyone needs health care, and everyone needs the same thing for their basic (not luxury level) health care. If everyone who is capable of work and can currently find work is contributing to the health care system, then a significant proportion of the people who are left are going to be in need of the health care system - probably desperate need.

So let's take a look at the freeloaders. Many of them will be basically healthy, and therefore not using the system much.

Effectively, an employer-based system bars the unemployable, those who can't find employment, those who get jobs without benefits for whatever reason, and the self-employed, from the health care system.

I think that places like Australia and Canada have the right idea when it comes to said healthcare. Universal healthcare may not be the end-all be-all of things, but it's a damn sight better than what we have in the US as things stand now.

I just read this and it pissed me off bigtime. Aside from the other things that are horridly wrong with it, it REALLY fucking burns me that people can get freebies like that whereas someone like me CANNOT support themselves in the manner like most other normal people do, due to problems that are beyond my present ability to cope with.

I'm not asking for luxury stuff like cosmetic dentistry or such (been there and done that with braces as a kid and the damn things STILL didn't work, thankyouverymuch shitty genetics). I'm asking for a goddamned level playing field so that I can keep up with the majority of contributing society.

Basic healthcare lets people deal with the small shit before it turns into big shit and drags everybody down. Healthier population = happier population = better productivity and less crap like crime and the like. This guy, for instance, has it spot-on about mental illness.

I've had some people tell me I should apply for state assistance and the like, yet in the same breath decry universal healthcare. Well, guess what? Going on the dole means I'll be one of those so-called "parasites" that supposedly freeloads on the system. So make up your mind, you can't have it both ways. Either give me the tools I need to make a decent go of things, or don't complain about those who are on public assistance who just might actually NEED it.

[CancelMyService]

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline...timate-re.html

New estimate: Retirees need $225K for medical bills

Is your nest egg big enough to cover the rising costs of health care?

Fidelity Investments says the average 65-year-old couple should have $225,000 set aside for medical expenses if they're retiring in 2008. That's a 4.7% increase over last year's estimate.

"With health care costs continuing to outpace wage increases and companies trimming retiree health benefits, financing health care has to be central to retirement planning," Fidelity's Brad Kimler says in a press release. "Given current economic conditions, this is especially true for those planning to retire in the next few years or before they qualify for full Social Security or Medicare benefits."

Truly, America must resist the Orwellian nightmare of not having gramma and grandpa spending their life savings in health care costs. Our taxes might get raised! Never mind that ever growing deduction on your pay stub where your premiums are taken out (if you're lucky enough to have company provided health care), we're talking about taxes dammit! They must not be raised at any cost! Hell, lets forget about public schools and road maintenance too, everyone should just fend for themselves and F anyone who can't afford it.

[IDrinkaRum]

Well, I've finally realized I have to buckle down and get help from "the system". My daughter is Autistic (which is one reason I like Obama with one of his issues being disability and one of the disabilities he touches upon is Autism). I can get disability checks from Social Security for my daughter to help out to pay for a speech therapist & an Occupational Therapist outside of school. Now I feel like I'm a freeloader. Am I? Am I a hypocrite for asking for this stuff? I'm not sure. I'm conflicted.

Universal Health Care is a good idea I suppose. I'm still not entirely convinced. And maybe I'm way too cynical (and don't take this wrong, I love my country and I will never really totally bash it) but sometimes our politicians can take a wonderful idea and completely destroy it. And that is what I'm afraid of. And I still don't like the idea of Government (and to an extent, maybe, big pharmacy companies) telling us what to do, what to take, and your health will be an open book.

[Seshat]

This guy, for instance, has it spot-on about mental illness.

I urge all of you to read that article if you haven't already. I've seen the slide towards insanity, and it starts very, very subtly.

And as the writer says, admitting to mental illness invites discrimination and social isolation. Continuing to take meds with unpleasant side-effects when you're feeling 'perfectly fine' is very, very hard.

Eh. Just read it.

[Rapscallion]

Now I feel like I'm a freeloader. Am I? Am I a hypocrite for asking for this stuff? I'm not sure. I'm conflicted.

Not at all. You have a genuince case. They provide assistance for those with genuine cases. You are not a freeloader.

You are also interested in giving your daughter the best possible chance in life. Take the assistance.

Rapscallion

[IDrinkaRum]

Thank you Raps. I'm going to be downloading the paperwork & filling it out this weekend and then going to the social security office next week sometime to talk to the people in charge there and see what else I need to do. I need to talk to my daughter's pediatrician too about getting a handicapped license plate as autism is a reason to get one. (I have nightmares of her running around in the parking lot - which she has done on one occasion and I don't want to repeat that).

[AFPheonix]

Well, I've finally realized I have to buckle down and get help from "the system". My daughter is Autistic (which is one reason I like Obama with one of his issues being disability and one of the disabilities he touches upon is Autism). I can get disability checks from Social Security for my daughter to help out to pay for a speech therapist & an Occupational Therapist outside of school. Now I feel like I'm a freeloader. Am I? Am I a hypocrite for asking for this stuff? I'm not sure. I'm conflicted.

Universal Health Care is a good idea I suppose. I'm still not entirely convinced. And maybe I'm way too cynical (and don't take this wrong, I love my country and I will never really totally bash it) but sometimes our politicians can take a wonderful idea and completely destroy it. And that is what I'm afraid of. And I still don't like the idea of Government (and to an extent, maybe, big pharmacy companies) telling us what to do, what to take, and your health will be an open book.

Well no, your health records will still be subject to HIPPA as it has been always. The only people who will be dealing with your health stuff will still be the people who should be: doctors and pharmacists. If anything, it may be easier to get ahold of what the doctor wanted you to have, since doctors and pharmacists won't have to play the games we do now to get stuff covered by multiple private companies.

And no, you're not being a hypocrite. You genuinely need the help, so get it. Don't feel bad, it's not like you and your husband haven't been paying into Social Security and Medicare. May as well get something back out if it.

[Seshat]

Well, I've finally realized I have to buckle down and get help from "the system".
<snip>Now I feel like I'm a freeloader. Am I? Am I a hypocrite for asking for this stuff? I'm not sure. I'm conflicted.

Freeloaders typically feel entitled to whatever they get, in the "why shouldn't I take from the system, everyone else does" sort of sense.
Genuinely disabled or otherwise needy people are entitled, in the sense of "this society has chosen to care for its disabled and needy citizens, and I'm one of them".

You're not doing this to "get while the getting's good" or to "look out for number one" or because "that's the way the world works". You're doing this because your culture and society have chosen to care for their disabled citizens, and you're the parent of a disabled citizen.

While you're at it, research what benefits your culture provides for carers. Caring for the disabled is a contribution to society, and is a damned difficult job, and the Australian society is becoming aware of just how much of a contribution carers make, and providing support for them. The American society may be aware as well, and may have support for you and your partner in caring for your daughter. You're entitled to that support, too. In the "society has chosen to provide this" sense.

As for 'am I a hypocrite?", no you're not. Hypocrites aren't open-minded enough to think "maybe I'm wrong", or "maybe it's a situational thing". You've been open-minded enough throughout this debate to say "well, it works for you guys, but I don't think it'll work for us". It just took some time for your entire message to get through to us.

And you always said that society should be providing health care to all its needy &/or contributing citizens - you just disagreed with us on the method; and were/are wary of health care provision being abused by wilful & selfish non-contributors (as opposed to the disabled and/or mentally ill, who you at least seemed to be saying deserved care).

And I still don't like the idea of Government (and to an extent, maybe, big pharmacy companies) telling us what to do, what to take, and your health will be an open book.

None of us do. Our societies have avoided all of that, hopefully your society would also be able to develop universal health care while avoiding that.

[IDrinkaRum]

Thank you Seshat for the comforting & kick-to-the-head words.

I try to be as open minded as I can without letting my brain fall out. (That would be terrible).

I was raised by a family that they paid their own way with everything and have very little, if any, credit card debt. Heck, they even paid cash for the 2 cars they own! (A 2002 Mercury Sable, bought NEW paid cash and a Toyota Prius, can't remember the year, somewhere between 2004 & 2006 and they paid cash for that as well). They've never asked for government assistance so that's why I'm hesitant about the Social Security payments, but you're right. Hubs & I have been paying into Social Security for years & into Medicare. I should ask for some help. It might not be a lot, but it will help out some.

Thank you.

[Seshat]

We live without credit card debt or personal loans as much as possible too. Paid cash for our car (97 Ford Fairlane). We're trying to save for a car that will take my scooter - we didn't have it when we chose the Ford, nor were we anticipating getting one so soon.

If A and I were able to, we'd be working. We aren't. So D works, A and I try to contribute as we can and humbly accept the charity of society for the things we must have and couldn't otherwise get.

Pride is a good thing. But humility is a good thing too. Don't be so proud you can't accept charity when you qualify for the things your society has chosen to give charity to! That's like refusing to accept a gift your grandmother gives you: rude and ungracious.

People feel good when they give to charities they feel deserve them. Give them the gift of feeling good: accept the help they feel you deserve. Remember how you feel when you see news stories about people who've been hit with rotten luck, and you happened to be in a circumstance to give help. Maybe you donated food and clothing to the Red Cross in the aftermath of Katrina, or helped organise a picnic for the local 'special' school. Now it's your turn to be the helped.

You can thank your helpers by doing what you want to do anyway: raise your daughter as best you can, to be as happy and alive and independent as her disability lets her be. (Not that I'm saying 'don't say thank you!' For specific charities or individual assistance, I always try to express my gratitude clearly. But for social security and the like - well, it's hard to say 'thank you' to society as a whole without taking out a front-page ad in the paper. )

And don't forget that people choose to help carers, as well as the disabled. At minimum, join a carer support group and see if you find that helpful.

[DesignFox]

Chiming in a little late here...

I think the US could learn something from Australia, Canada and the UK. Universal Healthcare would be a godsend!

Take it from a girl who went from job to job and couldn't get insured for the longest time.

Ever fear your favorite activity because if you got hurt you know you'd go bankrupt?

Yea. I say screw a system that will allow hard working people to go bankrupt because they can't afford health insurance and their employers are too cheap to provide it for them.

No offense meant to anyone here, but the only people I see arguing against universal healthcare are people who are currently insured.

Greenday, wait until you get out of college. You will be dropped off your Dad's insurance plan like a hot plate, unless he pays for you out of pocket.

It took me two years to finally find a full time job that offered me decent benefits. And those benefits didn't kick in until after 3 full months of employment. It wasn't easy.

I went to work sick A LOT before I had benefits because I couldn't afford the trip to the doctor or the $100 or so for meds. It sucked. God forbid I choose to get another job, I would have to be without benefits for a three month period before I could get picked up on their health plan, or I'd have to pay $300-$400 per month for COBRA just to stay covered continually!

Health insurance rates are OUTRAGEOUS! I have done the research. It is despicable. If I was a single mom and dirt poor, I could have gotten help from the government, but working PART TIME and making $8 an hour I didn't qualify for public assistance. No way in HELL you can afford $400 a month on that kind of pay.

So, I believe in Universal Healthcare. We need something here to level out the playing field.

If I got paid more money instead of having benefits from my employer, I wouldn't mind paying out the extra bit in taxes. It would make up for the fact that at least I could keep myself HEALTHY and not fear bankruptcy if, heaven forbid, I require a trip to the ER.

[rahmota]

I have to agree with Designfox. The way the system is here in america only the rich or lucky or those willing to forgo just about anything else can get good or any health insurance. I know I would love to see a universal or national health care system ala canada or so implemented in america.