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The Original Intent Of The Founders

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  • The Original Intent Of The Founders

    It has been argued many times to me that the original intent of the
    Founding Fathers was towards what would be a libertarian state, with minimal weak government, and little to no interference in politics. The most common misconception is that they were all like-minded libertarian types, which is ridiculous to anyone who's cracked a history book.

    The reality is that about half the Founding Fathers—the ones who became Federalists—favored a strong federal government. That's why they called themselves Federalist. Hamilton, the leading Federalist thinker and the main writer of the Federalist Papers, had this to say about the "limits" of government:

    [T]he federal government must of necessity be invested with an unqualified power of taxation in the ordinary modes.
    - Hamilton, Federalist No. 31

    Oops. The whole idea of checks and balances came about because many Founders favored a strong central government. Others second this reading of the Founding Fathers. For instance, consider this excerpt from Richard Brookhiser's review of "Alexander Hamilton" by Ron Chernow:

    Hamilton looked beyond his department to advise Washington on the entire conduct of the government. Hamilton argued for "energy in the executive." He wanted the government, led by the president, to do whatever needed doing as long as it was not explicitly forbidden. This advice brought him into conflict with his former co-author Madison, who had once seemed to agree with it but now got cold feet. Their quarrel over constitutional interpretation helped generate the first two-party system — Hamilton's Federalists versus Jefferson and Madison's Republicans (ancestors of today's Democrats, not the GOP). When Jefferson and then Madison became president, they both to a great extent followed Hamilton's advice, without ever admitting it.

    So Hamilton's party favored a strong central government. Jefferson's party opposed it in theory but accepted it in reality. Sounds to me like Hamilton's position was the predominant one.

    Garry Wills, a leading political writer, confirms my point in his book "A Necessary Evil: A History of American Distrust of Government.":

    Wills' main point is clear and persuasive. The Constitution was created by men who wanted to strengthen national authority, not weaken it, and who believed state governments were more likely than the national to abuse power and threaten individual liberties. Yet somehow, the Anti-Federalist critique of the Constitution, which warned of the danger to liberty posed by overweening federal authority, became the common understanding of what the founders had wrought.

    In short, the idea that Jefferson represented the Founders is a myth. In fact, he represented the opposition to what most Founders sought. This is especially amusing as most libertarians uphold Jefferson as the "archetypal Founding Father", when he neither wrote nor had input into the US Constitution.

    Many ask if the federal government is even close to what most of the Founding Fathers would have wanted it to be. Given Jefferson's Louisiana Purchase, which may be the biggest US government action of all time (by some measure), I think the Founders understood that government can't ignore reality. I think they'd understand that government had to grow to keep pace with the country's population, now 281 million. That's why they included broad phrases such as "provide for the general welfare" as well as the power to add amendments.

    It's funny anyway because here's what Jefferson had to say on the reality of federal power:


    ...I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That "all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people." [Xth amendment.]


    If the powers are reserved to the people, the people have the right to delegate them back to the state or federal governments. This clause really doesn't limit the Constitution the way you think it does. By saying "the enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people," the 9th Amendment reinforces this interpretation of the 10th Amendment. The people have more rights than those listed in the Constitution. Do those include the right to privacy? Yes. The right to abortion? Yes. The right to an expansive interpretation of the Constitution? Yes.

    Just as people can grant themselves rights in state constitutions that go beyond the US Constitution, they can extend the Constitution using its broad or ambiguous provisions. Even James Madison, almost as strict a constructionist as Jefferson, said the people had the right to change their view of the government's power:

    If, therefore, as has been elsewhere remarked, the people should in future become more partial to the federal than to the State governments, the change can only result from such manifest and irresistible proofs of a better administration as will overcome all their antecedent propensities. And in that case, the people ought not surely to be precluded from giving most of their confidence where they may discover it to be most due....
    - James Madison, Federalist No. 46

    I consider this a nice restatement of the 9th and 10th amendments. It implies the people's rights supersede any hazy interpretation of the Constitution's limits. Unless the Constitution is definite on a point — e.g., the president's term shall be four years — the people's view of their own rights is paramount. If they say the right to privacy or abortion is one of their unenumerated rights per the 9th Amendment or one of their reserved rights per the 10th Amendment, it is — by definition.

    The same applies to flag-burning, school prayer, or homosexual marriages. Since the Constitution isn't explicit on these issues, the "right" is whatever the American people say it is. If the people elect a Congress that passes a law that the president signs and the Supreme Court upholds, that becomes the definition of our rights — not what Jefferson thought our rights were 225 years ago. The people have unenumerated and reserved rights Jefferson never imagined.

    Here's one of Hamilton's statements about the federal government's powers:

    A complete power, therefore, to procure a regular and adequate supply of revenue, as far as the resources of the community will permit, may be regarded as an indispensable ingredient in every constitution.
    - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 30

    Even Jefferson wasn't as libertarian as his rhetoric might suggest. For instance:

    He regarded himself as more loyal to the U. S. Constitution than his loose-constructionist foes were, though in fact he was less a strict constructionist in practice than in theory. Although he had objected to features of Hamilton's financial system, he had no intention of upsetting it now that it was firmly established.
    - Encyclopedia Americana

    Page 1493, Letter to Major John Cartwright Monticello, June 5th, 1824:

    To the State governments are reserved all legislation and administration, in affairs which concern their own citizens only, and to the federal government is given whatever concerns foreigners, or the citizens of the other States; these functions alone being made federal.

    Yes...so? Most federal laws concern the citizens of all states, not the citizens of one state only. Besides, the 14th Amendment, among others, enlarged the scope of the federal government's power. The passage of that and other amendments — perfectly legitimate, by the way — now determines the Constitution's interpretation, so Jefferson's views are no longer strictly applicable.

    The one is the domestic, the other the foreign branch of the same government; neither having control over the other, but within its own department....

    Several Federalist Papers speak of the Union's being more important than the several states. If Jefferson thought the state and federal governments were exactly equal, he was mistaken. Maybe he should've read the Constitution itself:

    This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof...shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
    - US Constitution, Article VI

    The Supremacy Clause speaks pretty clearly.

  • #2
    I find two things funny about anyone bringing the Founding Fathers into modern day arguments:

    1. No one really has any idea EXACTLY what they would have thought about what's going on today mainly because these issues would never have existed back then.

    2. I really don't care. Props for them for starting everything. But this is OUR country NOW and WE are the ones who should determine how it is ran. Not people who haven't been alive in centuries.
    Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else. The contrary opinion that violence doesn't solve anything is merely wishful thinking at its worst. - Starship Troopers

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    • #3
      The thing I find annoying about the constant blathering and felating of the Founding Fathers for political points is thus: It doesn't matter what the their original intention was, because they lived in a different time and a different world. While they laid the original groundwork, they could have never seen nor predicted the sheer complexity of the modern world.

      Their opinion is essentially invalid. You must do what's best for your country now. Not what was best for your country then.

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      • #4
        Sure, times have changed, but the principles are still here. Those who claim that the principles don't apply to them shouldn't bitch about their rights or lack thereof.
        "You are a true believer. Blessings of the state, blessings of the masses. Thou art a subject of the divine. Created in the image of man, by the masses, for the masses. Let us be thankful we have commerce. Buy more. Buy more now. Buy more and be happy."
        -- OMM 0000

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Ipecac Drano View Post
          Sure, times have changed, but the principles are still here. Those who claim that the principles don't apply to them shouldn't bitch about their rights or lack thereof.
          Trying to guess what their principles MIGHT have been is not practical for our world. And probably wouldn't be practical even if we knew for certain what those principles were. Laws change over time to adapt, and that's what happened.
          I have a drawing of an orange, which proves I am a semi-tangible collection of pixels forming a somewhat coherent image manifested from the intoxicated mind of a madman. Naturally.

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          • #6
            Holding onto the words of something from hundreds of years ago and arguing over the intent is an abrogation of your responsibility to your own destiny, or it's just using someone else to beat others to your ends.

            Bit like something else I could mention.

            Rapscallion
            Proud to be a W.A.N.K.E.R. - Womanless And No Kids - Exciting Rubbing!
            Reclaiming words is fun!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Ladeeda View Post
              Trying to guess what their principles MIGHT have been is not practical for our world. And probably wouldn't be practical even if we knew for certain what those principles were. Laws change over time to adapt, and that's what happened.
              There isn't that much "guesswork" to what the founding fathers had intended. All it takes is to read what they had written in addition to the Constitution. The only "confusion" is just some people who do not agree with what was written and using the excuse of ignorance of what was said in order to further their own agenda.

              All I can say to those people (well, I could say more) is that if they're not happy with the US, they should move out of here and start their own damned country.
              "You are a true believer. Blessings of the state, blessings of the masses. Thou art a subject of the divine. Created in the image of man, by the masses, for the masses. Let us be thankful we have commerce. Buy more. Buy more now. Buy more and be happy."
              -- OMM 0000

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Ipecac Drano View Post
                All I can say to those people (well, I could say more) is that if they're not happy with the US, they should move out of here and start their own damned country.
                Or how about this? I'm alive, thus my opinion is a lot more damn important than the dead's.
                Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else. The contrary opinion that violence doesn't solve anything is merely wishful thinking at its worst. - Starship Troopers

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Greenday View Post
                  Or how about this? I'm alive, thus my opinion is a lot more damn important than the dead's.
                  Epic fail!
                  "You are a true believer. Blessings of the state, blessings of the masses. Thou art a subject of the divine. Created in the image of man, by the masses, for the masses. Let us be thankful we have commerce. Buy more. Buy more now. Buy more and be happy."
                  -- OMM 0000

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ipecac Drano View Post
                    Epic fail!
                    ... Care to explain yourself? Cause this isn't really an effective argument in a debate. So, how are the opinions of the founding fathers more important than the opinions of the citizens of today's America?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ipecac Drano View Post
                      Epic fail!
                      Fantastic argument. Really proved me wrong on this one.
                      Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else. The contrary opinion that violence doesn't solve anything is merely wishful thinking at its worst. - Starship Troopers

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by the_std View Post
                        ... Care to explain yourself? Cause this isn't really an effective argument in a debate. So, how are the opinions of the founding fathers more important than the opinions of the citizens of today's America?
                        He's the one who feels that his opinion is better than those who had established the sovreignty of this country. If he thinks that opinions can be proven, let him try to prove that his word matters more than Thomas Jefferson's, Ben Franklin's, et al.

                        Originally posted by Greenday View Post
                        Fantastic argument. Really proved me wrong on this one.
                        It was just as good as the one you had provided. That's the safe thing about opinions: they can't be proven nor disproven. If you're going to ask rhetorical questions, expect answers like that one.
                        Last edited by Ipecac Drano; 12-19-2010, 10:53 PM.
                        "You are a true believer. Blessings of the state, blessings of the masses. Thou art a subject of the divine. Created in the image of man, by the masses, for the masses. Let us be thankful we have commerce. Buy more. Buy more now. Buy more and be happy."
                        -- OMM 0000

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Today's situation is a lot different than it was 200+ years ago. Thus my opinion, as someone who actually knows the situations and can analyze them, is better than just guessing what some old guys would have thought back then. Quite obvious.
                          Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else. The contrary opinion that violence doesn't solve anything is merely wishful thinking at its worst. - Starship Troopers

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Greenday View Post
                            Today's situation is a lot different than it was 200+ years ago. Thus my opinion, as someone who actually knows the situations and can analyze them, is better than just guessing what some old guys would have thought back then. Quite obvious.
                            Keep repeating it to yourself. Besides, we already have people today who analyze what the "old guys" say and how it applies today. Quite obvious.
                            "You are a true believer. Blessings of the state, blessings of the masses. Thou art a subject of the divine. Created in the image of man, by the masses, for the masses. Let us be thankful we have commerce. Buy more. Buy more now. Buy more and be happy."
                            -- OMM 0000

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ipecac Drano View Post
                              Keep repeating it to yourself. Besides, we already have people today who analyze what the "old guys" say and how it applies today. Quite obvious.
                              If they did a good job at analyzing it, there wouldn't be so much controversy.
                              Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else. The contrary opinion that violence doesn't solve anything is merely wishful thinking at its worst. - Starship Troopers

                              Comment

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