The Original Intent Of The Founders

[ditchdj]

"A foolish faith in authority is the enemy of the truth".

----Albert Einstein

[Ipecac Drano]

If they did a good job at analyzing it, there wouldn't be so much controversy.

The controversy is due to those who do not agree with what the founding fathers had said.

"A foolish faith in authority is the enemy of the truth".

----Albert Einstein

Too bad that doesn't apply here.

[blas87]

Everyone is allowed their own opinion.

The way the government runs today is bassackwards from what the country was founded on, pure and simple. Holding on to the past, or holding on to what a bunch of dead white men once said may seem silly, but people are allowed to still be "Patriots", if they want to be.

And saying your word is more valuable because you are still alive is pretty far off and quite frankly, not the most mature of statements.

[Greenday]

Everyone is allowed their own opinion.

The way the government runs today is bassackwards from what the country was founded on, pure and simple. Holding on to the past, or holding on to what a bunch of dead white men once said may seem silly, but people are allowed to still be "Patriots", if they want to be.

And saying your word is more valuable because you are still alive is pretty far off and quite frankly, not the most mature of statements.

Based on my opinions, gays, women, and blacks all have rights. Based on the founding fathers' opinions...not so much. Pretty sure they didn't say anything about illegal immigration or abortion or wars in foreign countries. There's so much stuff the founding fathers never made a comment on and yet people still try to say what the founding fathers would have wanted. Quite frankly, I don't care. This isn't there country anymore, this is our country. The people who live here now should make the decisions. Not some people guessing at what people 200+ years ago might have liked.

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

I'm fine with not debating endlessly what how the Founders would feel about today's America, but that doesn't change the fact I think there are some areas the government should stay the out of.

[smileyeagle1021]

Or how about this? I'm alive, thus my opinion is a lot more damn important than the dead's.

There is a kernel of good argument in this... change that to be I am a living person, thus my opinion is more relevant than a dead persons.
The founding fathers were mere mortals, they were falible (as is of course Greenday and the people trying to analyze the Founder's intent). If I have to choose trusting a fallible person who is guessing at what another fallible person would have meant and then claiming it to be gospel, or the person who says "i'm just trying to do the best I can do with what I have and this is what looks right", I'm trusting the person who is honest enough to admit that they don't have all the answers (because I highly doubt anyone really does)

Epic fail!

Thank you for pretty much destroying your credibility. You had a good argument, so why ignore it and instead make an ad hominon attack?

The controversy is due to those who do not agree with what the founding fathers had said.

The Founding Fathers couldn't agree with each other... why should we?

[blas87]

You also have to remember that a group of old black/woman/gay hating white men also fought for your right to say that your words are more valuable because you're still alive, and many soliders died in the name of making sure you'd always have that right to talk out of your ass if you pleased.

Aw, and wouldn't you know....still....soliders still die every day to protect you and your right to say whatever you want.

[Mytical]

The founding fathers, like many that come before, have become idolized. Made bigger then life. Some would even say 'worshiped'. They were just people. People in exceptional times, under exceptional hardships, but just people. While a lot of what they say rings true, there is so much they never even dreamed of, let alone experienced. Nations, like people, have to adapt or die. It has been proven through out history. No matter how big, no matter how powerful, etc..every single one of the 'most powerful' countries at their time collapsed when they didn't adapt. They might not have 'died', but they became a shadow of themselves.

The Mongols, The Egyptian Dynasty, The Roman Empire.....so forth and so on. Somebody once wise once said (to paraphrase) Eternal diligence is the price of freedom.

[Ipecac Drano]

Thank you for pretty much destroying your credibility.

I've already defended my remark; try to keep up.

You had a good argument, so why ignore it and instead make an ad hominon attack?

That wasn't an ad hominem attack I made on rhetoric. Would you like a nice little tu quoque?

The Founding Fathers couldn't agree with each other... why should we?

They couldn't agree with each other? Well, initially. But they did pull together and put out the Constitution, didn't they?

The founding fathers, like many that come before, have become idolized. Made bigger then life.

No, they were just referenced.

[AdminAssistant]

No, they were just referenced.

No, they're idealized. I guarantee that if you were to ask the average high school kid, they would tell you that they absolutely believe that George Washington couldn't tell a lie, that Thomas Jefferson was a believer in freedom (except for Mrs. Hemmings), and that Ben Franklin pissed rainbows and shit candy.

These men did an exceptional thing and went to great lengths to make sure they didn't have to pay extra taxes to pay for the war they fought. Yes, a lot of noble whitewash goes onto that story, but that was the impetus for the revolution. No taxation without representation.

Can you imagine if you went to a kid in a high school history class and said that George Washington owned slaves, that Thomas Jefferson kept a slave as a mistress, or that Ben Franklin was the world's biggest misogynist? Blow their little minds.

They didn't have the issues to deal with that we do today. They didn't have to worry about rogue nations holding nuclear weapons that could destroy the entire planet. They didn't have to worry about reproductive rights (because women had no rights). They couldn't imagine the problems we have today. And reading between the lines of the Constitutions for answers is like a Fundamentalist Christian using the Bible to figure out God's opinion on internet porn.

[Rageaholic]

And reading between the lines of the Constitutions for answers is like a Fundamentalist Christian using the Bible to figure out God's opinion on internet porn.

Exactly. That's the problem with using any historical document to try to understand things like that. You're bound to get several different interpretations from different extremes. Hell, just reading the declaration of independance, I can argue that women have no rights (all men are created equal).

Now, I don't think we should completely ignore everything said in the declaration, but we need to understand that those were much different times than now. If we insist on a literal interpretation, we will never move forward.

[ditchdj]

The thing I find annoying about the constant blathering and felating of the Founding Fathers for political points is thus: It doesn't matter what the their original intention was, because they lived in a different time and a different world. While they laid the original groundwork, they could have never seen nor predicted the sheer complexity of the modern world.

Their opinion is essentially invalid. You must do what's best for your country now. Not what was best for your country then.

And what might THAT be????

What do you wanna do? Just throw out the Constitution and start all over?

Then who gets a say in it?

[Greenday]

And what might THAT be????

What do you wanna do? Just throw out the Constitution and start all over?

Then who gets a say in it?

No one is saying to get rid of the Constitution. It works for most stuff. But to say, "This is what politicians thought 200+ years ago so me was hold strictly true to that!" is ludicrous. We need to be able to continually change it so it can adapt to modern day situations/opinions. I mean, if it wasn't meant to be changed, we would have stuck with the Articles of Confederation.

[ditchdj]

Well than what does the Constitution NOT work for????

[Greenday]

Well than what does the Constitution NOT work for????

Well, it didn't cover slavery. It didn't cover women's rights. Etc. etc. Which is why it's necessary for us to be able to change it from what the creators intended.