What A Compassionate President

[BigGiant]

Okay. I have a few things to say about Vick.

#1- He did not go to prison for killing dogs. He went to federal prison for operating an illegal multi-state gambling ring.

#2- He got basically 'timed served' for killing dogs.

#3- Either way, our system decided the punishment, and he served his sentence.

But-

One messed with the integrity of the game (Rose).

One did something completely unrelated to his sport (Vick).

It's quite obvious why Rose cannot be a part of baseball and why Vick should be allowed to play football.

I would argue that I wouldn't want Michael Vick anywhere near the NFL because of the integrity issue.

The gambling ring reportedly moved millions of dollars a year. Now you tell me, when you think of millions of dollars of illegal gambling, what institution (not legal) generally comes to mind?

Combine that with the fact that he has declared bankruptcy and reportedly owes over $500,000 to debtors. How much money does he owe other folks 'off the books'?

If I'm in charge of the NFL, or the owner of a team, I don't take the chance that he's still got ties to...those folks.

Let's also add in that a co-defendant (that testified against Vick) was shot at a night club this past summer, during Vick's birthday party. (Vick had reportedly left a few minutes earlier).

So.....he was involved in multi-million dollar illegal gambling ring, is out of money and in debt, may still be associating with those folks, yet you're going to risk letting him play the most influential position on the field in your League.

I'd say that's a little more than just a 'PR' risk, and is one that I wouldn't take. It is also a lot worse than a manager or coach betting on his sport.

There's a reason Rose got a lifetime ban. It is because a professional sports league cannot have even the hint of a game or player 'on the take'.

Luckily for the NFL, folks completely ignore the gambling charges because they are so fired up about the dog killing.

[BigGiant]

I'll add one more thing in response to this:

As for the whole "An average joe wouldn't have been given such a second chance" I think that you're right. A famous athlete does have an advantage over the 'average joe' in this respect.

Guys like Michael Vick are not 'average joes'. This isn't because of the celebrity or their money. It is because of the skills and talent that they posses. It isn't like some guy like me working behind a desk at some company in middle America, USA.

He is one of the top's at his profession that is already elite. There are only 32 guys good enough to be starting Quarterbacks in the NFL, and not only is he one of them, his skill set is so unique, we haven't seen anything like it in over 100 years of NFL football.

If you think that's fair or not is besides the point. The guy has something that millions of people don't, and gets treated differently because of it.

People in general, that are the absolute tops or elite at their professions get the same treatment. In that sense, he is like everyone else. But to compare him to the average joe is silly, because he is anything but.

[Greenday]

The gambling ring reportedly moved millions of dollars a year. Now you tell me, when you think of millions of dollars of illegal gambling, what institution (not legal) generally comes to mind?

Combine that with the fact that he has declared bankruptcy and reportedly owes over $500,000 to debtors. How much money does he owe other folks 'off the books'?

If I'm in charge of the NFL, or the owner of a team, I don't take the chance that he's still got ties to...those folks.

Let's also add in that a co-defendant (that testified against Vick) was shot at a night club this past summer, during Vick's birthday party. (Vick had reportedly left a few minutes earlier).

So.....he was involved in multi-million dollar illegal gambling ring, is out of money and in debt, may still be associating with those folks, yet you're going to risk letting him play the most influential position on the field in your League.

I'd say that's a little more than just a 'PR' risk, and is one that I wouldn't take. It is also a lot worse than a manager or coach betting on his sport.

There's a reason Rose got a lifetime ban. It is because a professional sports league cannot have even the hint of a game or player 'on the take'.

Luckily for the NFL, folks completely ignore the gambling charges because they are so fired up about the dog killing.

So, if I'm reading this right, your reasoning against Vick being able to have integrity with football is complete circumstantial evidence you have zero proof of.

Until he does something that involves him losing integrity for football, there is no reason why he shouldn't be allowed to play.

[BigGiant]

Yes.

I don't think there can be even the slightest hint. But I'm not saying they shouldn't let him in. I'm saying that I wouldn't let him in.

I'm not against him playing, but because of the circumstantial evidence, I wouldn't hire him.

[blas87]

Michael Vick is nowhere near the best quarterback in the NFL, don't even play the "but he's so good at his game" card. There are lots of talented men in the NFL. He isn't special. He's a good player, but he's far from the best.

[BigGiant]

He isn't special. He's a good player, but he's far from the best.

Did not say he was the best. I said, one of the best.

And also pointed to his unique skill set (amazing speed and agility that NO qb has ever had, combined with an incredible arm.)

His accuracy and decision making keep him from being the best.

To suggest that he is "nowhere near the best" reeks of personal bias.

I really do not like the guy, and he plays for my team's biggest rival. But you really can't say he isn't one of the best.

And even if he isn't a top 15-20 QB in your mind, that's petty much beside the point of my post. He's certainly top 32 at his profession.

Any lawyer, accountant, actor, scientist, whatever that is in the top 32 at what they do (in the entire country, if not the world) isn't going to be treated like an "average joe", because they are not "average".

[BigGiant]

Again- to add a little perspective to my point.

There are around 11,500 Division IA college football players in the US. Of those, only around 500 make it to the NFL per year. Of those, most don't actually even see any playing time, and most don't last for longer than one season.

There are 1696 players in the NFL (not counting practice squad).

So, being even top 50 out of arguably 13,000 in his profession is anything but "ok" or "good". (yes I counted college players as part of the pool...arguing about whether or not they can be considered professional is a topic for another thread).

Just getting into the NFL makes you elite. To actually excel and be a top ten at your position makes you that much more elite.

[Sleepwalker]

Hehe. The Obama thing "Why don't they hate Obama as much as they hated our guy? Not allowed to bring in any actual events as explanation!" thing is pretty amusing. It must be because he's black, there's no other reason why people would attack him less than Dubya.

As for Vick, really. You want to punish him more for being famous. Animals are tortured and killed everyday without the perpetrators losing their jobs- that's up to their employers. You are aware of Vick, and therefore want to punish him specifically outside the law. Animal abuse bother you? Change the laws so that everyone gets punished more for it rather than fixating on a celebrity who you think is way to bad a guy to be... a celebrity.

[Greenday]

Michael Vick is nowhere near the best quarterback in the NFL, don't even play the "but he's so good at his game" card. There are lots of talented men in the NFL. He isn't special. He's a good player, but he's far from the best.

Pick five QBs better.

[blas87]

Present or past?

I would imagine after last week's game, Aaron Rodgers would be an obvious pick.

I wonder if Vick got his skills the same way Randy Moss did.....running from the cops.

Yes, I went there. Sue me.

[AdminAssistant]

Pick five QBs better.

Better players or better people?

[Greenday]

Present or past?

I would imagine after last week's game, Aaron Rodgers would be an obvious pick.

Better players or better people?

Present. And yes, I'd put Rodgers over Vick. That leaves you to pick four more who are better.

Better players. When it comes to football, I don't give a crap if the person is a gentleman or not.

[AdminAssistant]

Better players. When it comes to football, I don't give a crap if the person is a gentleman or not.

If someone's getting paid that kind of money, I don't think it's too much to ask for them to not be an asshole. Or break laws. But whatevs.

Fiance was watching a college game (Auburn/Oregon, maybe?), and someone got a personal foul. The commentators said that player was known as a "dirty player." Well, then why are they still playing? Especially with college ball, there's no reason for it.

[Greenday]

If someone's getting paid that kind of money, I don't think it's too much to ask for them to not be an asshole. Or break laws. But whatevs.

Fiance was watching a college game (Auburn/Oregon, maybe?), and someone got a personal foul. The commentators said that player was known as a "dirty player." Well, then why are they still playing? Especially with college ball, there's no reason for it.

Has Vick broken any laws or been an asshole since his comeback?

Being a dirty player doesn't mean you are out there to kill people. It just means that you tend to grab too much of the jersey while blocking or you grab receivers a lot when you get beat. It can also mean that you make completely legitimate blocks and the only reason they are considered dirty is because you weren't blocking right at the spot of the play.

[BigGiant]

Id you want to include Rodgers(which I would), that leaves Brady, Peyton, Breez, and maybe Rivers.

I don't think I'd rate anyone else higher (including Eli, ATM).


So there's an argument that Vick is #5. I don't know who else you could rate higher...as much as I hate to admit it.

Either way, even if he is just top 20, he's much better at his profession than any of us are....which was my original point.