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  • #16
    Whether you call them bulls-eyes, surveyors markers, targets, or buckets of fish is not the point. Sarah Palin was clearly not saying "These are people we need to kill." Only a crazy person would think that. They were clearly saying "These are the places we need to focus on."

    I'm not often the first to defend Sarah Palin, but whatever they are supposed to be or look like is irrelevant.

    We should tone down our rhetoric. Not about using gun metaphors in speech, we need to tone down the dehumanizing of our rivals. We need to stop seeing EVERYTHING as us versus them, anything we do is good, anything they do is bad.

    The Daily Show said something interesting yesterday. The measure of our rhetoric shouldn't be how it effects crazy people, but how it effects the rational mind. We have to look at something and say "Would violence be a reasonable response to this?"

    Some people would say violence is never reasonable. But I think violence is only justifiable in rare occasions. But we must tone down our rhetoric when we think "Would violence make sense in what I'm saying." When we talk about how someone (on either side) wants to destroy America, or how they're like Hitler, we have to realize that violence IS a reasonable response if someone truly believes that a person sincerely wants to destroy America/do Hitler stuff.

    That's when the rhetoric needs to be toned down, and things like that are coming from both sides.

    Any reasonable person, even if they believed everything I said, would understand that violent metaphors are just metaphors. But if a reasonable person truly believed that the 'other side', whoever they are, intend to destroy this country, then violence would be reasonable. That is the rhetoric we need to tone down. Not something like Sarah Palin's map.

    Sleepwalker: Nobody on the left (at least no major figure) has advocated the murder of politicians. And even the farthest right major figures haven't done that either. Both sides have used military metaphors in their speech. But I don't think either side was advocating the murder of politicians.

    And there are far-right people who have advocated the murder of politicians, and you can find them. You can find far-left people who have too. But I'm saying no major, national figure has done that.
    Last edited by Ree; 01-30-2011, 03:30 AM. Reason: Merged consecutive posts
    "Nam castum esse decet pium poetam
    ipsum, versiculos nihil necessest"

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    • #17
      One thing that has always confused me a little about the US constitution.

      People state that their x amendment rights are sacrosanct.

      But isn't the amendment and addition/change on the original document?

      Therefore can they not be changed back or removed?

      So to enact gun control all (I say that in a very broad sweeping way - I'm sure there is a huge legislative process to go through) you need to do is revoke that amendment?
      The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it. Robert Peel

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      • #18
        Theoretically, and it sounds good on paper. However, life..and our politics are not that simple. Besides which, as stated before, it would only affect law abiding people. Which would do what exactly? Make them easier targets?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Mytical View Post
          Theoretically, and it sounds good on paper. However, life..and our politics are not that simple. Besides which, as stated before, it would only affect law abiding people. Which would do what exactly? Make them easier targets?
          Gun control doesn't mean turn them all into door stops, but taken to it's literal conclusion there isn't anything that stops a person from owning a .50cal rifle or a .50cal browning MG, but why would you need either in a decent society?
          The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it. Robert Peel

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          • #20
            Originally posted by crazylegs View Post
            Therefore can they not be changed back or removed?
            They can and have, but it's rare.

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            • #21
              Generally speaking, Amendments seek to make additional protections that were not specifically outlined in the original Bill of Rights as opposed to removing protections that were outlined as fundamental to freedom.

              ^-.-^
              Faith is about what you do. It's about aspiring to be better and nobler and kinder than you are. It's about making sacrifices for the good of others. - Dresden

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Andara Bledin View Post
                Generally speaking, Amendments seek to make additional protections that were not specifically outlined in the original Bill of Rights as opposed to removing protections that were outlined as fundamental to freedom.

                ^-.-^
                But that's the thing - the right to bear arms isn't on the original document therefore it's not outlined as fundemental to freedom...
                The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it. Robert Peel

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by crazylegs View Post
                  But that's the thing - the right to bear arms isn't on the original document therefore it's not outlined as fundemental to freedom...
                  The amendments were a part of the document when it was created: At least, 1-10 (The Bill of Rights) were. In fact, in 1787, when the debate of whether or not to ratify the US Constitution was being made, the creation of a bill of rights was one of the things that helped it finally be ratified, in order to help quiet the anti-federalists.

                  The Massachusetts Compromise basically said (very implicitly, but not explicitly) that we will vote for this only on the condition that amendments are made

                  The Constitution was ratified in 1789, and the 1st Congress almost unanimously agreed that they were going to put in some amendments. The Constitution was ratified in March, and the Bill of Rights created in September.

                  The wiki article has a good history.

                  Basically, they weren't in the ORIGINAL document, but they were always going to be there. If it didn't exist, then the US Constitution might never have been ratified.





                  Also, in order for a change to the US Constitution to be made, 2/3rds of the two houses of Congress have to agree to propose it, or 2/3rds of the state legislatures have to vote to demand Congress call a constitutional convention to discuss it.

                  In order for an amendment to be put onto the US Constitution (Or stricken, which would be adding an Amendment saying "Forget that bit) either 2/3rds of all state legislatures have to vote for the amendment, or 2/3rds of the states have Ratification Conventions to ratify it.





                  The Constitution is meant to be a building block that all of the US centers around. An amendment COULD technically be passed declaring guns to be illegal, or repealing the second amendment.

                  But for all intents and purposes, to summarize and clarify my statement.


                  Technically the amendments were added to the Constitution, but without them there would be no Constitution, and the government can't just change them.
                  "Nam castum esse decet pium poetam
                  ipsum, versiculos nihil necessest"

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by crazylegs View Post
                    But that's the thing - the right to bear arms isn't on the original document therefore it's not outlined as fundemental to freedom...
                    The Bill of Rights is part of the original document as it was included as part of the original ratification because there were those who felt that a specific enumeration of rights would be necessary.

                    The 2nd amendment is fundamental to the right of liberty as it is essential in securing that liberty.
                    All units: IRENE
                    HK MP5-N: Solving 800 problems a minute since 1986

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                    • #25
                      I think I may have to 'blame' westerns for how people seem to see guns. For some reason the TV wild west is what comes to mind when people think of Americans and guns. Either that or the Civil War. I just don't understand WHY that is. However, going further on that thought would spark a debate I have no interest in participating in.

                      It boils down to this. Right now, there are way too many guns out there for any type of gun control law to do anything. At all. Criminals by definition, go against the law. So they would still be able to get guns, while the 'law abiding' citizen would not. Which MIGHT (now mind you I said MIGHT) embolden some criminals, as they would know for sure that their victims have a better chance of not being armed.

                      Not all crimes are about money you see. Shocking I know. Not all criminals want your STUFF. Some want to hurt, rape, kill, etc. I know, say it ain't so! Alas it is so. If a bunch of armed people break into your house, I can pretty much be safe in saying that weapon or not..chances are you and your family are going to get hurt. A weapon MAY turn the tide and scare them off.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by crazylegs View Post
                        Gun control doesn't mean turn them all into door stops, but taken to it's literal conclusion there isn't anything that stops a person from owning a .50cal rifle or a .50cal browning MG, but why would you need either in a decent society?
                        Short answer: We don't live in a "decent" society. We live in a cruel and callous society with a false veneer of civility.
                        One mixed drink is all it takes to make me Cata-tonic!

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cata View Post
                          Short answer: We don't live in a "decent" society. We live in a cruel and callous society with a false veneer of civility.
                          Even if you assume that our society is decent, what's to stop individual members from being cruel and callous?

                          ^-.-^
                          Faith is about what you do. It's about aspiring to be better and nobler and kinder than you are. It's about making sacrifices for the good of others. - Dresden

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                          • #28
                            Gun control doesn't mean turn them all into door stops, but taken to it's literal conclusion there isn't anything that stops a person from owning a .50cal rifle or a .50cal browning MG, but why would you need either in a decent society?
                            Target shooting, I know people who really enjoy that...

                            But anyway. The problem is, even the most decent of societies will have its criminals, vagabonds, and madmen. A decent society does not ensure every person in it will be decent.

                            If we could be sure everyone would treat each-other honestly, rationally, and fairly, we wouldn't need laws at all.
                            "Nam castum esse decet pium poetam
                            ipsum, versiculos nihil necessest"

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Andara Bledin View Post
                              Even if you assume that our society is decent, what's to stop individual members from being cruel and callous?

                              ^-.-^
                              Nothing at all, which really, is kinda the point of the whole thing.

                              That said, IMO we do live in a decent society, but nothing more than that. Most people are O.K., some are better, some are worse.
                              All units: IRENE
                              HK MP5-N: Solving 800 problems a minute since 1986

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                              • #30
                                Wait, don't we already have a thread on this? >.>

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