OMG! you want us to pay for pensions=fascist pig

[Andara Bledin]

I just don't see how anyone can be so opposed to workers fighting for their rights. It's so counterproductive.

Sour grapes.

"We don't get them so you shouldn't either," goes the cry.

^-.-^

[blas87]

Last night, protestors on both sides of the argument (most likely more on the anti-Walker side, though) were on both sides of the main drag through the city.

Thank goodness I take the freeway. How horrid. I don't want to imagine what'll happen when they start harrassing traffic during the day.

Edit: it costed over $300,000 to clean up after the last round of rioting messes in Madison. That money could have went to better causes. I wonder how much this rioting to prevent the assembly is going to cost.

[BlaqueKatt]

I wonder how much this rioting to prevent the assembly is going to cost.

a lot, I just came home early, and got to hear some of the threats of the protesters. a Teamster Saying if the bill isn't overturned(because somehow an unpopular bill being passed now makes it "illegal", nope sorry it was perfectly legal), they will call a general strike and bring the ENTIRE COUNTRY to it's knees. Yup that's a rational course of action there....

[HYHYBT]

I had a feeling Walker was gonna pull something like this, but I didn't think he'd do it.

"We don't get them so you shouldn't either," goes the cry.

Trying carefully not to derail the thread, so please don't run with this... but I'm seeing more and more of the same idea with gay marriage. A lot of people who, before, were all after the government recognizing marriages between opposite-sex couples only seem to have figured out that that isn't tenable long-term anymore, and have switched their line to "get the government out of the marriage business." Yes, they'd rather their own marriages be legally worthless than to allow certain others to be recognized.

[BlaqueKatt]

Sour grapes.

George Carlin would like a word...

The phrase sour grapes does not refer to jealousy or envy. Nor is it related to being a sore loser. It deals with the rationalization of failure to attain a desired end. In the original fable by Aesop, "The Fox and the Grapes," when the fox realizes he cannot leap high enough to reach the grapes, he rationalizes that even if he had gotten them, they would probably have been sour anyway. Rationalization, that’s all sour grapes means. It doesn’t mean deal with jealousy or sore losing. Yeah, I know you say, "Well many people are using it that way, so the meaning is changing." And I say, "Well many people are really fuckin’ stupid too, shall we just adopt all their standards?"

"We don't get them so you shouldn't either," goes the cry.

actually for most of the people I've spoken with, it's the fact that we as minimum wage workers, who cannot afford insurance and retirement, are paying for it for people that make almost twice as much as we do if not more. As is a waitress making $2.35 per hour-how is that even remotely fair?

The very small company* I work for(where the ONLY benefit is low stress and the owner knows each of us personally, and not only asks for but respects our opinions-she believes individuality is better than "corporate culture" as we all bring something to her company as individuals), seriously there are 14 of us total including the owner, would go bankrupt if forced to offer benefits. We choose to work there for lower pay because of the work environment Virginia fosters. Do we complain about it? Nope, we chose it. However the state workers complain about low wages as compared to the private sector, and when pressed about why don't they switch to the private sector, they complain about the benefits not being as good.

So in effect, they choose low wages, and complain very vocally about it, and downplay the benefits they get so they can complain about low wages, when the benefits(and not having to worry about being fired for poor job performance because of tenure and the union) are why they chose the job.

so you can choose job A for lower pay and benefits, or job B with higher pay and less benefits, you don't get to choose job A and then turn around and complain the people at job B make more money, when your benefits make up much more than the wages at job B. They want the pay of job B plus the benefits of job A, and want me to pay for it, out of my minimum wage paycheck. You can't have your cake and eat it too, especially when I'm stuck picking up the tab for your cake. These are people that bitched about the taxpayer bailouts to companies(why is my money going to pay for sending executives on vacation?), but don't get that this is pretty damn much the same thing?

Bank executives use taxpayer monies to go on vacation=uproar from middle class that can't afford to go on vacation themselves.

But

State workers wanting taxpayer money to cover their benefits=/=poor people in an uproar because they can't afford benefits?

someone show me the difference in the situations please? The first one is "righteous indignation" yet the second one is somehow equal to supporting slavery and fascism-I don't get it, it's the same damn situation.

*remember I chose to take a pay cut and give up my benefits to take a job with much lower stress levels, if I had stayed at the old lab for the benefits, I would have no right to bitch about the stress, you cannot bitch about a situation your own choices placed you in.

[blas87]

I am also direly sick of the "everyone who supports Walker is rich!" bandwagon, or that everyone in favor of the bill must be some CEO or big banker or something.

Or the generalization that everyone who is Republican is rich.

It's getting really old.

[AdminAssistant]

I understand poor/working class Republicans about as much as I do gay Republicans or artists who are Republicans. It makes no sense to support the party that does not support you.

Also, bitching about CEO's getting paid trips to Maui is a bit different than bitching about state workers getting necessary basics like health insurance. Of course, if this country would join the rest of the modern world and offer nationalized health insurance then we wouldn't even be having this motherfucking problem!!!!!!

[blas87]

To me, it's as bad of a stereotype that all jocks are idiots, all blondes are bimbos, and all liberals are poor/working class and are into the arts. That's just not true.

Are a lot? Sure. But not all of them.

[FArchivist]

Edit: it costed over $300,000 to clean up after the last round of rioting messes in Madison. That money could have went to better causes. I wonder how much this rioting to prevent the assembly is going to cost.

I personally as a taxpayer am more inclined to pay to clean up the mess, treating it as a cost of allowing freedom of speech and freedom of assembly in this nation. We could forbid it, but that smacks to me of the old strike-breaking assaults by police back in the Bad Old Days previous to unions.

(because somehow an unpopular bill being passed now makes it "illegal",

Eh, don't get too hasty.

While there are some who say the Senate vote was legal, there are indications to the contrary that parliamentarian law was broken. However, all that is being taken to the courts and will be decided by the courts. Should it be decided that parliamentarian law was broken, the bill (and resulting law) will be declared illegal.

As Princess Leia told Han Solo, "It's not over yet."

Bank executives use taxpayer monies to go on vacation=uproar from middle class that can't afford to go on vacation themselves.

But

State workers wanting taxpayer money to cover their benefits=/=poor people in an uproar because they can't afford benefits?

someone show me the difference in the situations please?

You're not going to like this answer, but both situations are invalid. Why?
Because that money you pay in taxes is Not Your Money.
Once it gets taken as a tax, you don't get say over how it's spent except via elected representatives. if you want to change how it's allocated, you vote differently in the next election.

What I'm hearing here is "Workers in the public sector don't have the right to ask for a raise or anything else because MAH TAX DOLLAHS!" And you somehow using the fact that you're a minimum-wage worker justifies that opinion. Is that correct?

*remember I chose to take a pay cut and give up my benefits to take a job with much lower stress levels, if I had stayed at the old lab for the benefits, I would have no right to bitch about the stress, you cannot bitch about a situation your own choices placed you in.

Bullshit. You have EVERY right to bitch about your work situation, period. You have EVERY right to campaign for more pay, more benefits, and less stress at any job you have.

If you wonder why I'm violently opposed to your opinion, it's because of the logical conclusions it entails:
- That these miners back in the 1910s shouldn't have bitched about being fired on with machine guns, because they chose to work for that company.
- That these garment workers shouldn't have bitched about dying in the fire, because they chose to work for that company.
- That these workers should never have striked, even though the company town prices remained the same while their pay was slashed, because they chose to work for that company.

And before you say that stuff like that can't happen again, yes, it can. It happens around the world today and it CAN happen here in the USA again.

[BlaqueKatt]

I understand poor/working class Republicans about as much as I do gay Republicans or artists who are Republicans. It makes no sense to support the party that does not support you.

Really?

It makes perfect sense, how do you change a group if you aren't a part of it? You initiate change from within the group. Or do you truly believe the Democratic party was always sunshine and roses? hint: no it wasn't, and saying "but, but we changed, that's the past" well what do you think we're trying to do?

state workers getting necessary basics like health insurance. [/I]

except a part of the bill that got ZERO attention due to all rabblerousing by the "poor state workers" is the cutting of funding for medicaid-you know the health insurance that the unemployed and poor rely on. They want everyone to back them to get free healthcare, but fuck the poor people, "we're more important", they claim to be fighting for "all workers rights", but anything that doesn't concern their benefits or their rights is shouted down at the rallys. They shouted down several staffers for a domestic abuse center(funding for that is not even IN the budget), with "this is a rally for worker's rights only!" It's quite frankly, disgusting.

Refresher-
Medicaid for poor being cut almost entirely
State workers, having to pay a WHOPPING 12% of their insurance premiums, as in not being cut entirely just have to actually pay for it to ease the taxpayer burden.

If you actually do the math the total of 8% of one's salary to pay for insurance and pension is a whopping $41 a week for someone making $25,000, or about $6 per day, at that payrate which would be about $12/hour it equals that 30 minutes of their PAID lunch hour goes to insurance and pension-wow yeah that's totally horrible.

[Racket_Man]

one of the BIG things that is totally being lost in all of the labor "relations" BS is this

the state is cutting $900 MILLION in state aid to local school disctircts.

NOW with all of this "No Child Left Behind" and "Race to the Top" BULLSHIT that is coming out of the Federal government AND in the fact that the US schools seem to be turning out less educated students than when I was back in grade and High school.

I have been on this Earth for 50 years now. 40 of that I have listened to the BS propoganda that our schools are going to hell.

"well if you do not vote in this tax increase/bond issue/what-the-fuck-ever funding, we are going to start cutting sports, art, band, music, theater, etc. then increase class sizes, no new text books for 20 years, no building repair, no facilities upgrade or repair, no raises for the teaching staff, less janitors/messier schools, etc, etc, etc.

well for 40 years I have listened to more politicians, PTAs, school boards, whoever say we MUST have GOOOD schools, we must catch up with the rest of the world, our schools suck, our students are bad, our teachers suck,

BUT

what is the very first thing that they all cut from when the going get a little tough??????

EDUCATION BUDGETS

yeah let's fuck with the teachers since all of the dumb kids we are turning out are their fault. DAMN overpaid teachers who work 10+ hour days for 9 months out of the year (yeah the summer is spend either teaching or getting continuing ed stuff), are crapped on by admins and parents alike, get kids dumped on them by unattentive/uncaring parents, etc.

oppppssss we bought too many ivory backscratchers so we gotta cut SOMETHING. OH yeah we will just cover up that 5 years supply of t-paper and blame the cost on something else

and people wonder why the dropout rate for teachers in the first 5 years of employment is about 60 to 70%??????

[Boozy]

actually for most of the people I've spoken with, it's the fact that we as minimum wage workers, who cannot afford insurance and retirement, are paying for it for people that make almost twice as much as we do if not more. As is a waitress making $2.35 per hour-how is that even remotely fair?

What is the argument here? That as long as there is one poor taxpayer in the state of Wisconsin, all government employees must also remain poor?

You need educated, competent people in government, and you don't get that with lousy compensation packages.

[BlaqueKatt]

What is the argument here? That as long as there is one poor taxpayer in the state of Wisconsin, all government employees must also remain poor?

how does paying the price of a starbucks latte a day for insurance AND pension=poor? for me to purchase comparable insurance, would be over twice that($14/day), and that's just insurance.

You need educated, competent people in government, and you don't get that with lousy compensation packages.

So we need educated Janitors?
Nurses need better compensation that the $36/hour+benefits they currently get?

Hell as a pharmacy tech with a HS education and nothing further(as in zero previous pharmacy training or experience), the starting wage to work at the state teaching hospital is $18/hour plus benefits. Which is more than my husband makes in IT with a BS.

Heck the people that work at the unemployment office(also state workers), are the people who were about to lose their unemployment.


The main annoyance is there are tons of problems with the bill, but the only thing anyone is allowed to disagree with is the "worker's right's" portion, and the worker's are taking the stance of "if your not for us your against us" So if you try to bring up one of the other issues in the bill, you get shouted down for "not caring about worker's right's"

I haven't really taken sides because frankly both sides are being stupid, and IMHO propaganda is propaganda no matter who it comes from, and I don't like it.

[guywithashovel]

There's a similar bill here in Ohio. It's Senate Bill 5. It would restrict collective bargaining, ban strikes by public workers, eliminate binding arbitration, and changes the way public employees pay for benefits.

My sister and her husband are both in a really big steam over it. Sister is a teacher, and Brother-in-Law is a substitute teacher. They both say that they won't be able to pay their bills if this passes. Almost every day they post something new on Facebook about it.

What gets me is that Governor Kasich and others who support this act like public employees are leeches on society. Um, no. They work. They pay taxes just like you do. Every day, they go to work and assure that your kids get educated, the transportation system works well, our cities and towns are kept safe, and a whole host of other things.

[HYHYBT]

you cannot bitch about a situation your own choices placed you in.

Of course you can. The line (or portion thereof) I quoted amounts to "pick from the available choices, and once you've done so, shut up and don't dare try to improve it further." And where would we be if nobody were allowed to push for improvements?