If the Federal Government shuts down, who is to blame?

[FArchivist]

1) Expecting people to go out on potentially deadly missions and not be able to feed their families is ridiculously messed up. Asking people to sit in their chair in a nice office and miss a paycheck is hardly as terrible.

So we need to pay our soldiers, but the Park Rangers (DeptInt), Border Patrol (DHS), Coast Guard (DHS), DEA, BATF, FBI, CIA, Secret Service - all those guys can just go hang or work for free, right?

Fuck that noise. If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.

2) So because they didn't previous times, we shouldn't now? Doesn't make sense to me. The argument "That's the way it's always been" doesn't hold up in any argument.

It's not a precedent you want to set, unless you want to start having budget wars over every single department in the FedGov. If you don't mind having the FBI and CIA funded this week, but soldiers are fucked and then reversing the situation next week, go right ahead. The result is unstable government.

3) That's why they have to pass new legislature to make it legal.

No, I don't think it should. It inhibits necessary compromise and would create bad governance.

Really? You are really going to compare having to maybe run from a bear to dodging IDF, not setting of IEDs, dodging bullets and grenades along with guys with suicide vests? I'm speechless on that one.

The soldier volunteered for his job. So did the Park Ranger. If we're going to say one job is superior to the other, than the soldier should be sitting in a cushy office and the Park Ranger getting shot in Afghan.

It doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me. Soldier, park ranger, office worker, attorney, doctor - it's all FedGov. Either pay them all or pay none of them.

[Gravekeeper]

The soldier volunteered for his job. So did the Park Ranger. If we're going to say one job is superior to the other, than the soldier should be sitting in a cushy office and the Park Ranger getting shot in Afghan.

It doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me. Soldier, park ranger, office worker, attorney, doctor - it's all FedGov. Either pay them all or pay none of them.

I have to echo this me thinks albeit for different reasons. Soldiers are volunteers and I'm sure many of them opted for the job *because* its a good solid paycheque. However, more important, FedGov such as park rangers generate revenue. Soldiers do not, they drain it. As a result, a shut down costs more money than it saves. So best pay them all and keep it coming in as its going out.

[Greenday]

Soldiers are as much volunteers as a cashier is for his job. If you tell a cashier to work for no money, should you really expect them to show up anyway? No! So if you tell a soldier you aren't going to pay them when they expect and need it, do you really expect them to be so willing to risk their life on the line?

It is their job. You get paid to do a job. No pay? No work.

[Gravekeeper]

Soldiers are as much volunteers as a cashier is for his job. If you tell a cashier to work for no money, should you really expect them to show up anyway? No! So if you tell a soldier you aren't going to pay them when they expect and need it, do you really expect them to be so willing to risk their life on the line?

It is their job. You get paid to do a job. No pay? No work.

annnd...what? I don't understand what you're trying to say now, you sound like you're contradicting your previous position. -.-

[FArchivist]

Soldiers are as much volunteers as a cashier is for his job. If you tell a cashier to work for no money, should you really expect them to show up anyway? No! So if you tell a soldier you aren't going to pay them when they expect and need it, do you really expect them to be so willing to risk their life on the line?

It is their job. You get paid to do a job. No pay? No work.

Exactly. So if we're not paying these other workers, we're not paying the soldiers. And no, I don't expect the soldiers to show up for work or go on missions or perform patrols or do a damn thing but stay in their barracks if they're not getting paid.

So I'm not seeing a problem here.

[Hyena Dandy]

Soldiers are as much volunteers as a cashier is for his job. If you tell a cashier to work for no money, should you really expect them to show up anyway? No! So if you tell a soldier you aren't going to pay them when they expect and need it, do you really expect them to be so willing to risk their life on the line?

It is their job. You get paid to do a job. No pay? No work.

Yeah, we're all with you. Everyone should be paid.

[Greenday]

annnd...what? I don't understand what you're trying to say now, you sound like you're contradicting your previous position. -.-

I'm trying to say that asking someone to risk their life for no pay is different from asking some deskjockey to work for no pay. Should both be paid? Yes. But if you are only going to pay one, the choice is clear.

The soldier volunteered for his job. So did the Park Ranger. If we're going to say one job is superior to the other, than the soldier should be sitting in a cushy office and the Park Ranger getting shot in Afghan.

Statements like this are why I'm pointing it out. It's like you are saying that because a soldier chose their job, the makes the fact that their job is actually dangerous irrelavent. I'm saying it's still relevant. One person risks their life for the government while the other does not. That makes the first more deserving of pay.

[AdminAssistant]

Not all of the military is in imminent danger and not all non-military federal employees are pencil-pushers behind a desk.

[Hyena Dandy]

Not all of the military is in imminent danger and not all non-military federal employees are pencil-pushers behind a desk.

Quoted because that says what I was going to say much more concisely

[Tanasi]

Yes both Sailor, Soldier, Marines, Airmen and Park Rangers volunteered for their jobs. The biggest difference is the Park Ranger can quit and go to the house if he so chooses the military personel has to stay and do their jobs or risk prison. I don't think Ranger Smith has that hanging over his head.

[Hyena Dandy]

Again, because of that, the park ranger shouldn't be payed in a crisis?

And also, what about the military pencil pushers? They don't risk their lives, should they be payed over someone who does but can quit?

[Tanasi]

Again, because of that, the park ranger shouldn't be payed in a crisis?

And also, what about the military pencil pushers? They don't risk their lives, should they be payed over someone who does but can quit?

One thing you learn real quick in combat arms is you'll never see a skinny remf as they get theirs before you get yours.
What's a crisis to a park ranger??? Especially one that can't be solved by closing the park. Had the govt actually shut down the blamed parks would have closed. No people in the parks cuts down of a lot of what the park rangers have to deal with, besides I'd say the LEO personel of the park system are considered essential and would have still been paid. At the GSMNP most of the emergency services are provided by the local cities and counties, that leave the policing of the pic-i-nic baskets to the Ranger Smith patrol.

[Hyena Dandy]

I apologize, I must still be being affected by my fever, but I can't figure out what exactly you just said.

[Tanasi]

What I'm saying is the folks deployed to hostile areas (down range) should be paid before all others and especially those that have dependent families. It's a lot easier to do your job under combat conditions when you're not worrying about your family. REMF is a rear eshalon mother fucker (support and supply) and they make sure they get all their needs (and most wants) met before those they supply get theirs. I'm not saying all remf are underhanded but like I said I've never met or seen a skinny one either. All that being said I've been in combat and I've been a remf I think the armed forces should come first even though they're volunteers they've taken oaths to do their jobs until relieved and if they don't then they risk death in some situations how many park rangers have that hanging over their heads???
Had the shut down occured the nation park system would have been closed and in most parks the public totally kept out, therefore the so-called crisis's the park rangers mostly deal with would have been at a bare minimum. While I don't know for sure I'd say the LEO (law enforcement officer) side of the park service would have still been on the job (therefore still being paid) being considered "essential." I also don't know about other parks but the Great Smoky Mountains National Park (GSMNP) gets the majority of it's rescue and law enforcement from departments and agencies outside the park.
I'll leave Range Smith and pic-i-nic baskets for you to figure out.

[Gravekeeper]

The biggest difference is the Park Ranger can quit and go to the house if he so chooses the military personel has to stay and do their jobs or risk prison. I don't think Ranger Smith has that hanging over his head.

Military personal voluntarily signed in to that agreement of their own free will with full knowledge of the consequences though. Ranger Smith doesn't have that hanging over his head because he didn't agree to it. But you can bet if Ranger Smith walked off the job and it resulted in property or personal damage like it might with Lt Dan, he'd be in prison at the end of the day too. Deployed military personel in a combat theatre are obviously risking their lives yes, but yet again, it was their choice. We're not talking about conscription here. You can glorify it all you want, but it's a job and a choice. The risk is much higher yes, but they knew that going in.

But you know what? Yeah it fucking sucks to not get paid, but it fucking sucks for everyone. Novel idea: Get pissed off at the idiots who *caused* this to even come up for debate instead of dick measuring who deserves to be paid and who doesn't. Everyone deserves to be paid for the work they put in.