Osama Bin Laden has been killed...game changer?

[BlaqueKatt]

Wouldn't matter if they existed, Americans would never vote for them anyway. ><

hey I vote for nader every time he's on the ballot

[Greenday]

Yeah but he also had a rather useless and uncharismatic opponent to go up against. John Kerry should never have been the guy for the Democrats.

Which is what Obama gets to deal with. Sure he has this, but he doesn't need it since the Republicans have no legit candidates to put up.

[Racket_Man]

yes let us have our brief world wide victory dance, but in the end it is a very hollow victory. so ONE prominent person has been neutralized yet there are tens of thousands of others who will permeate the woodwork and continue on with the "fight".

the extreamists, the crazies, the nutjobs, the headcases, the dicator-wanna-be's, the single-mindedness of a person who believes they and they alone are right and their path is the ONLY way, and the humans who speak with a multi-forked tongue are NOT going away anytime soon. the above mentioned persons or groups ARE STILL willing to use vilolent methods to get their point accross or to scare people into submission (look at the Madrid train bombings). People who cowardly hide behind a single extream life philosophy or religion or the Flying Spagatti Monster will still be there in the morning and still operating.

I am young enough to remember all of the PLO bombings in Europe in the 70's and 80's (usually targeting some popular night spot frequented by US soldiers) so this "fight" is nothing new to the world. HELL the US was founded by a bunch of "terrorists". Soviet Russia was brought into exsistance by a bunch of "terrorists". heck even Isrreal was a "terrorist state" before it was a country when it was in the British Empire after WWII.

am I going to cower in fear down in my fortified bunker?????
am I going to make significate changes in my daily life????
am I going to minute by minute watch the "terror" threat level?????
am I going to be vigilant and spy on everyone around me (esp them damn forgieners)?????

NO

yes this man has the 3d hand blood of thousands of people on his hands but there are far worse out there.

dance while you can, the fun is just beginning.

[Becks]

there are far too many people who just vote for whoever their parents/church/school/friends/the talking heads on TV tell them to vote for because actually finding out who the candidates are and what they stand for is hard.

That's the sad truth.

[Gravekeeper]

yes let us have our brief world wide victory dance, but in the end it is a very hollow victory. so ONE prominent person has been neutralized yet there are tens of thousands of others who will permeate the woodwork and continue on with the "fight".

True. But the death of the symbol is better for the US psyche then the death of an army. Bin Laden was the only face on the evil we were trying to fight. Everyone else was just a faceless dude with a name the average person can't even pronounce that the CIA insisted was really totally important this time we promise.

However, is that with Bin Laden dead the US can start getting out of these quagmires even faster because something concrete that everyone understands has been accomplished. Even if its only boils down to vengeance.

[Kimmik]

While I understand why people are celebrating, but for me I am a firm believer that killing is wrong no matter the reason.


I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.
Mohandas Gandhi

[Rapscallion]

However, is that with Bin Laden dead the US can start getting out of these quagmires even faster because something concrete that everyone understands has been accomplished. Even if its only boils down to vengeance.

I'd not thought of it in those terms, but I'm quite prepared to say that I think you're onto something there.

Rapscallion

[BlaqueKatt]

to the people quoting Ghandi and MLK-these people HATE anyone that isn't Muslim-love cannot change that, all he love flowers and chocolates won't change that.

Osama Bin Laden declared a Jihad against the US and their supporters, according to the Koran, ALL the unbelievers must be converted or killed, they will never stop, love cannot "Fix" or "cure" the hatred of the fundamentalists.

as a matter of fact-their religion strictly forbids it:
from the Koran:
ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them for friendship is of them.

Believers, do not take My enemy and your enemy for your guides, offering them love when they have disbelieved the truth that has come to you, who expel the Messenger and yourselves because you believe in Allah, your Lord! If you go out to struggle in My way seeking My pleasure, but secretly love them, I know well what you conceal and what you reveal; whosoever of you does this will have gone astray from the Right Path.

Those who deny Allah and His apostles, and those who wish to separate Allah from His apostles, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": And those who wish to take a course midway, — They are in truth equally Unbelievers; and We have prepared for Unbelievers a humiliating punishment. (this is in reference to christians and jews)

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah.

O Apostle! Rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: If a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: For these are a people without understanding.

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell, —an evil refuge indeed.

Let not the Believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers: If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah.

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost all spiritual good.

And slacken not in following up the enemy: If ye are suffering hardships, they are suffering similar hardships; but ye have hope from Allah, while they have none. And Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

Unless ye go forth in battle, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place

so quite simply-the only way to make them not hate you is to take up their religion, 100% and forsake whatever you believe(or don't believe)

Ghandi also said:
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

[Gravekeeper]

as a matter of fact-their religion strictly forbids it:

Ugh, again? I'm getting sick of "omfg Muslims Qu'ran says this!" rants. The correct translation and context of the line you're referencing is:

Al-Ma'dah 5: 51
O you who believe! Do not take Jews and Christians as your patrons. They are patrons of their own people. He among you who will turn to them for patronage is one of them. Verily Allah guides not a people unjust.

The verse doesn't say you can't be friends with Jews and Christians or any such stupidity. Its referencing the Battle of Uhud where some Muslims wanted to go live with the Jews or Christians where it was safer instead of in Medina with Muhammad after they lost the battle. The verse is basically a warning that you shouldn't rely on the Jews and Christians to protect you from the Meccans. As they'll protect themselves first. Unless you wanted to change teams anyway. ;p


Heck, if you go back a couple lines before that it says:

Al-Ma’dah 5 :8
O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do.

So can we shut the hell up about what the Qu'ran or Islam supposedly says already? It is no more good or evil than any other religion and like any other religion people can twist the words to justify whatever stupid bullshit they like.


Bottom Line: Osama Bin Laden was not a Muslim. He was a Fucking Asshole. He is to Islam what Fred Phelps is to Christianity: Crusty fecal matter clinging to the outside of the book after it was accidently dropped in a cow pasture.

[BlaqueKatt]

Ugh, again? I'm getting sick of "omfg Muslims Qu'ran says this!" rants. The correct translation and context of the line you're referencing is:

hmm correct according to whom-as what I typed is directly from my personal copy of it(which I admit is about 10 years old)-in actual paper form-yes mistranslations abound-but which translation is correct? Especially as the Koran itself cannot be translated, only the meaning of it, so it's very open to interpretation/misinterpretation. So ask five different people you'll get five different answers.

[Greenday]

Islam does not condone killing. Plain and simple. Unless you take some twisted form of their holy text or you take it out of context, they don't support killing. Muslims are good people just like anyone else.

[Kimmik]

*warning health is on the bad side currently please forgive my typos as I might miss a few and it takes for ever to type*

BK, the sad thing is there are nuts in every religion. Those who shot the abortion doctor were christian, Fred Phelps is "christian" are all Christians like him?

Osama Bin Laden was an evil man there is no doubt about it. But does his death really solve anythings? What does it say about us when we are cheering a human death?

I understand why he had to die, but it is not a joyous thing. I have lost friends due to 9/11, and I have family that will never be the same. America has become xenophobic, where anything Muslim must have terrorist underlineings.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/dt
should these people also be hunted down and killed and people cheering their deaths? For me the answer is no... shut away for the rest of their lives... solitary and forgotten...

[Gravekeeper]

hmm correct according to whom

The president of the Islamic Society of North America for starters. It makes no sense for the Qu'ran to forbid being friends with Christians and Jews when it also permits Muslims to marry Christians and Jews, and promises Christians and Jews entrance into Paradise if they are just and righteous. =p

The word used in the verse in Arabic has three meanings: Ally, friend or protector. Your copy has selected the wrong one of the three. No offence, but while you may own a personal copy it doesn't sound like you've really read it if you missed the contradiction.

[FArchivist]

kidding aside killing=/=murder

under us law manslaughter would be a stretch for this, it does not meet the legal grounds for murder: premeditation, intent, commission of a crime, or malice aforethought-since the intent was to capture none of the above applies. And had he been captured, he likely would have been hanged.

If it was an execution done by military tribunal, we no longer hang people. Random factoid, yea.

But let's not gild the lily here. We should be honest about what we did. We did not kill OBL. We did not murder OBL.

We assassinated OBL. We took him out, without permission, in a foreign country. We pulled an Oswald, a John Wilkes Booth, a Sirhan Sirhan. It was an assassination.

No one likes to say that because assassination is a 'dirty word'. Democratic and free countries don't do that. But it's what the rest of the world is calling it and they're right.

And guess what? Perfectly legal. After coming to office in 2008, Obama rescinded the sanctions against assassination. So long as someone is deemed a military threat, even if they are an American citizen, they can be targeted for assassination. Preferably using drones.

And you don't have to be on foreign soil either. Let's say we just found out that Asshat Jihad, formerly known as Mark Smith, an American citizen who has joined Al Qaeda and is a wanted military target, is traveling in a car down I-75. He's a military target; by executive order we send a Predator drone up his ass on the highway. No, it's not a violation of Posse Comitatus. The rules we have for assassinating people right now make it not a violation.

Rather chilling, really.

A person who thinks we should leave terrorists alone so they can continue blowing people up would be...anyone?
Oh right, a terrorist sympathizer.

Wait, so all pacifists are terrorist sympathizers? QUAKERS are TERRORIST SYMPATHIZERS?

I'm having trouble with your logic here. If this is correct, shouldn't we be rounding up and Gitmotizing the Quakers? Because terrorist sympathizers are noncombatant targets under the rules issued by GWB2 during his Presidency - and those have not been rescinded.

according to the Koran, ALL the unbelievers must be converted or killed, they will never stop, love cannot "Fix" or "cure" the hatred of the fundamentalists.

as a matter of fact-their religion strictly forbids it:

That's the Wahabbist interpretation and the interpretation of some Shiite sects. That's not the mainstream Sunni interpretation.

Just like the Baptist interpretation of Genesis is that the world is only 6000 years old, was created in exactly 6 days and that things like the speed of light, evolution, and basic science are all just wrong and against the Word of God. Never trust the interpretation of extremist sects.

[Greenday]

Wait, so all pacifists are terrorist sympathizers? QUAKERS are TERRORIST SYMPATHIZERS?

I'm having trouble with your logic here. If this is correct, shouldn't we be rounding up and Gitmotizing the Quakers? Because terrorist sympathizers are noncombatant targets under the rules issued by GWB2 during his Presidency - and those have not been rescinded.

Have the Quakers been saying we should let the terrorists keep doing what they are doing? Because my ex didn't say we should stop killing them. She said we should leave them alone which is a big difference.