Voting for Bush = stupid

[Boozy]

this is why I don't believe in the "this war is about oil" BS-meaning oh since the WMDs didn't exist we should let the genocide continue-and yes there was a genocide-just like germany in WWII-just not on as large of a scale yet.

If the US gave a damn about preventing genocide, they would have put boots on the ground in Darfur, where over 100,000 people have been killed. Or in Rwanda, where the genocide killed 800,000.

But those places don't have shit, do they? Iraq has oil, baby!

And don't forget: Al-Quida tried to bomb the Twin Towers during Clinton's administration.

Of course, they failed at that time. Probably because the Clinton administration didn't ignore intelligence briefs entitled, "Al Qaeda determined to attack the US."

[IDrinkaRum]

Of course, they failed at that time. Probably because the Clinton administration didn't ignore intelligence briefs entitled, "Al Qaeda determined to attack the US."

Perhaps, but the biggest being was all those Clinton analysts & non-Clinton analysts going on TV and saying that Al Qaeda was stupid for using trucks filled with explosives. Of course that wouldn't do much damage. What they should have done was fly planes into the Twin Towers and that would most definitely bring them down.

Took them about 5 years, but it worked, didn't it? We gave them the idea to work out 9/11. I really believe that no matter who was in the White House on 9/11/01 they'd have flown the planes into the Twin Towers.

[ebonyknight]

Perhaps, but the biggest being was all those Clinton analysts & non-Clinton analysts going on TV and saying that Al Qaeda was stupid for using trucks filled with explosives. Of course that wouldn't do much damage. What they should have done was fly planes into the Twin Towers and that would most definitely bring them down.

Took them about 5 years, but it worked, didn't it? We gave them the idea to work out 9/11. I really believe that no matter who was in the White House on 9/11/01 they'd have flown the planes into the Twin Towers.

But the Millennium attacks were thwarted under him. Most people point to this as the 9/11 that didn't happen.

It happened on Bush's watch, does that make him responsible? I don't know, but I know that I am tired of people (conservative pundits, usually) saying that Clinton allowed 9/11 to happen, yet give Bush no responsibility when it happened under his watch.

Yes, he only had been in office a short time, BUT he had expressly ignored Clinton's advice to start paying more attention to middle east terrorism. Bush was convinced at that time that we needed to go back to a cold war strategy vs. Russia and China. In fact, the very day of 9/11, Condi Rice (NSA at that time) was going to give a speech saying as much.

Bush has made some very bad blunders. Does it make him the worst? I believe so, but I haven't lived under most of the administrations in this country. I remember the Reagan years. People disliked Reagan as almost as much as we dislike Bush today. He was a doddering old buffoon, who didn't know his right shoe from his left. He slashed programs that lots of people depended on.

Yet today, he is lauded as one of the great American Presidents. Perhaps the same will happen for Bush. *shrug*

[DarthRetard]

Dude. Let's drop it. I didn't think you insulted me and it's really irrelevant to the discussion. No hard feelings.

We can drop it, that's fine, but it's not entirely irrelevant to the discussion, young padawan(sorry, couldn't help myself.)

The current administration, and even Congress, continues to be allowed to jeopardize the very rights which we founded this country on, and put ourselves on the brink of annihilation for at one point.

Congress gave the President power to declare war. ONLY Congress can declare war, we don't want that power in ANY one man's hands, whether it's Bush or Gandhi, it doesn't matter, that kind of power is dangerous.

Fear has become this government's tool for pushing legislation that pretends to protect but only slowly destroys and eats away at our civil liberties one by one.

Yes, guys, I try to do what I can to support my President, because he is my President and Commander-In-Chief, after all. However, I support my COUNTRY and what we stand for above all else, including myself. I admit, I was fooled by President Bush, and I wanted him in in 2004 because I thought Kerry was too indecisive. I didn't not like the guy, just thought we needed someone who would make a decision and stick to it, no matter how unpopular or wrong it may be.

That's where Congress fucked up. By passing the War resolution, supporting an interventionist foreign policy that drags us down into entangling alliances that strain our military and weaken our defenses, and by passing things like the Patriot Act, Congress has slowly taken steps to rid us of our sacred rights, and I'll be the first to admit that I was deceived by my government, but after having my eyes opened, I'll fight (morally) against any man, regardless of party, who tries to absolve us of our most inherent rights as men.

[ebonyknight]

We can drop it, that's fine, but it's not entirely irrelevant to the discussion, young padawan(sorry, couldn't help myself.)

How was our little aside on the "right" to life, relevant?

The current administration, and even Congress, continues to be allowed to jeopardize the very rights which we founded this country on, and put ourselves on the brink of annihilation for at one point.

Congress gave the President power to declare war. ONLY Congress can declare war, we don't want that power in ANY one man's hands, whether it's Bush or Gandhi, it doesn't matter, that kind of power is dangerous.

Fear has become this government's tool for pushing legislation that pretends to protect but only slowly destroys and eats away at our civil liberties one by one.

The system only works if there is an honest effort put into it. Bush pushed for the Patriot act to be passed and didn't provide Congress any copies to read. The morons passed it anyway. The bogus speech to the UN that Powell knew wasn't completely accurate, the faulty intelligence, the list goes on and on. An obvious comedy of errors and deceptions. Any system that provides garbage in, will get garbage out. Does "ignorance" absolve all involved?

That's where Congress fucked up. By passing the War resolution, supporting an interventionist foreign policy that drags us down into entangling alliances that strain our military and weaken our defenses, and by passing things like the Patriot Act, Congress has slowly taken steps to rid us of our sacred rights, and I'll be the first to admit that I was deceived by my government, but after having my eyes opened, I'll fight (morally) against any man, regardless of party, who tries to absolve us of our most inherent rights as men.

I don't know what to say. You want to hold Congress accountable, but want to excuse yourself from the same responsibility (voting for Bush?). Again, garbage in, garbage out. If we can put the blame on Congress for doing these asinine things, then why doesn't the blame also fall on the voters who put all of them and Bush in office in the first place???

But it's good to see that I am not the only one that sees our freedoms being eroded. It gives me hope that the country can turn around. It's annoying as hell when the first thing you get when these points are made are that "oh noez, we are losing our freedoms!!!"

[DarthRetard]

First of all, I wasn't old enough to vote in EITHER of the last two Presidential Elections. I'm turning 20 tomorrow. :-) K? Second, I'm not absolving myself of anything. It's a government representative of the people, so we put him in office, we're responsible, that's why we get to change our mind every four years. Yes? Yes.

That's why every vote matters. Sorry if I was a little unclear in what I meant in that aspect, EK.

[DesignFox]

The minimum wage needed to be raised. Yes, there was some fall out with the mom & pop shops, but sometimes some sacrifices need to be made in helping the economy & the people of the country.

Also, with the minimum wage increase, it helps some people to get off of supplemental government help. Not all, heck not even half, but some. But then again, I think we need to get rid of welfare completely and other supplemental programs that put a drain on our resources (it wasn't until the Democrats & the Great Depression & the New Deal acts that created Social Security & Welfare and other stuff). Before all those programs, people either failed or succeeded based on their merits & their abilities.

In my experience, the mom and pops pay far more than "the man." I have a much higher salary and better benefits working for Joe Schmo than I ever did working for the big companies I previously worked for. I also have vacation/sick time, better working conditions and better hours. Just my personal experience. I don't see minimum wage hurting mom and pop so much as Big and Rich Incorporated, simply because Mom and Pop paid their employees better to begin with...Big and Rich don't like having to pay- it cuts into their bottom line.

Getting rid of Welfare and letting people sort themselves out seems like a grand idea and all...but you don't live in my area. Poor people are desperate people. If not given access to at least basic necessities, you can bet we'll have a lot more problems with violence on our hands.

I don't need the less fortunate in my area thinking the only way they can get by is by breaking into my home or robbing me on the street.

Let them have their government stipend if it keeps them out of trouble.

(and that's NOT to say that EVERYONE is like this- but let's face it- if you couldn't put food on the table for YOUR children, what would you do?)

I'd rather not see people forced to choose between obeying the law, or starving in the streets. We don't need our children starving and dying of disease.

Yes, some people abuse the assistance programs. But there are also a lot of good people out there who just need a hand. A lot of those people eventually pull themselves out of needing that assistance. Let's not punish them by making things harder.

[ebonyknight]

First of all, I wasn't old enough to vote in EITHER of the last two Presidential Elections. I'm turning 20 tomorrow. :-) K? Second, I'm not absolving myself of anything. It's a government representative of the people, so we put him in office, we're responsible, that's why we get to change our mind every four years. Yes? Yes.

That's why every vote matters. Sorry if I was a little unclear in what I meant in that aspect, EK.

You are wise beyond your years, old padawan.

[DarthRetard]

Ha ha ha. "Old padawan" has definitely become a favorite term for today, thank you. Mind if I borrow it?

[IDrinkaRum]

DesignFox - People steal all the time. They claim to be doing it for the good of their families, but how can they be doing it for the good of their families if they get caught and wind up in jail?

The mom & pop I work at on Saturdays has nothing for their employees (full or part time). Fortunately it doesn't affect me as I'm married & on my husband's insurance. It sucks for the others though.

All the corporations I worked for (Roy Rogers, Booz Allen Hamilton, Veridian, etc.) had really great benefits and pay. And I was a "lowly" Administrative Assistant except for Roy Rogers, I was a full-time cashier/front end person.

We should really expand the "Get off of Welfare" act and stick to it.

Also, we really need Government to take a step back. I don't want Big Government coming in and telling me what to do/what to say/etc. Less Government is better. Be there for us when we absolutely need it, but otherwise, step back. Don't legislate our entire lives. Sheesh. That's just ridiculous.

[DesignFox]

We should really expand the "Get off of Welfare" act and stick to it.

Also, we really need Government to take a step back. I don't want Big Government coming in and telling me what to do/what to say/etc. Less Government is better. Be there for us when we absolutely need it, but otherwise, step back. Don't legislate our entire lives. Sheesh. That's just ridiculous.

This I'll agree with. I don't think the government should take over everything in our lives. We certainly shouldn't be "nannied" and "coddled."

I would love to see the system tuned better so people CAN get off of welfare and stay off of it. I don't think the system as is is perfect. But tearing out all those programs would be highly detrimental to the people who genuinely need them and are trying.

Again, I'd rather help out my fellow man, maybe (unfortunately) support a few slackers, and keep honest men from turning to stealing.

If your daughter was hungry, you wouldn't think about, what happens if mommy goes to jail (or maybe YOU would, but others might not) you'd figure out a way to feed your daughter- you'd do whatever it took.

I don't believe public assistance programs are that huge a burden.

And I've known people who have needed those programs. When it came to feeding her kid, my friend would have been up shit's creek without foodstamps. She could barely afford to keep the roof over her head, or maintain her car so she could get to and from work. She was stretched to her limit. Without that assistance, who knows what state she, or her child, would have been in. And she worked really hard, but she did come off of the food stamps. And I don't begrudge her one penny of my tax payer money that went to it.

You are very lucky to be on your husband's health plan. Not everyone is as lucky as you to have a husband who supports them. My friend's husband was a total jerkwad who walked out on her and her son. He was a deadbeat dad who never paid the child support. People like her shouldn't be punished for coming up on dire times.

And, at least in my great state of New Jersey, minimum wage is hardly a living wage. You can't pay rent on 7 bucks an hour in my area. Fast food hires at about 8 an hour...most mall jobs pay 7-8 an hour and only hire part time (effectively denying their employees health care coverage).

I'm happy for you that things are going well, Rum. But it isn't the same in all places. It isn't the same for all people. I'd hate to see an infant die in it's mother's arms because I'm too good to give up a small portion of my paycheck towards helping her get milk in her child's belly. Not all people on welfare, foodstamps, or other assistance programs are fucked-up assholes.

[IDrinkaRum]

I'm not saying all people on the welfare system are money grubbing assholes. But a fair amount of them are.

And before Welfare, what did people who are like your friend do? I'm pretty sure they didn't all let their kids starve to death and I'm pretty sure they didn't all steal to feed their families.

Where I live, there has been a mass exodus of illegal immigrants getting out of my county because of the crack down on illegals. That has made more work available for others out there, but places are still looking for people to work. Sure they're not the greatest, but if it was just me and my daughter, I'd get whatever job I could find. But that's just me.

[Zyanya]

I don't believe public assistance programs are that huge a burden.

They aren't. The 'welfare' that is an actual burden to the economy is the corporate welfare, where whoever is in office hands boatloads of money to the failing businesses of their cronies.

[rahmota]

And before Welfare, what did people who are like your friend do? I'm pretty sure they didn't all let their kids starve to death and I'm pretty sure they didn't all steal to feed their families.

What they did was have friends and families to help them. their community church or the community in general would help out in a communal show of assistence. Either that or yes the child died, the person turned to crime of one sort or another. You didnt think a lot of the prostitutes in the old west turned to that profession for the health and glamour?

As you can tell from my you are in charge thread on social woes I'm not a fan of capitalism as it is based on selfish desires and how much a person can get for themselves and screw the rest of the world. Pre ghosts Ebenzer scrooge would be quite proud of the way things are nowadays.

[CancelMyService]

As someone who has had to turn to various programs in the past (unemployment) and as someone who has a parent who's very existence on the planet is because of programs (Social Security Disability and Medicare), I really wish people wouldn't base their views of such programs on what right wing radio and/or TV personalities say.

Are there people abusing and cheating the system? Of course, there's no way there wouldn't be on programs that big. However if you've ever tried to apply for something like welfare (and yes, I'm not ashamed to say I have) you'd know it's not like anyone can walk off the street and leave with stacks of gub'mint money. I was actually turned down for it despite making less than poverty level. People abusing the programs isn't a sign these programs need blown up, its a sign that people will lie and falsify information to steal from the government. If someone is embezzling money from a company, do people say "well obviously the company needs to be shut down and privatized since it's wasting all that money"? Of course not.

We need to have a social safety net to temporarily help those who have fallen on hard times or need a boost to get out of their situations. Rabid Conservatives tend to hate these programs since not only is everything from the Government inherently evil (F you Ronnie for making that a meme in politics), they also seem to hate anything that cuts poor folks a break as they seem to think being poor is something that you can just stop if you weren't so lazy with your free checks and cheese wheels. Didn't MLK say how can you pull yourself up by your bootstraps if you can't afford boots?

As was stated previously, all the social programs you can think of don't make a drop in the bucket compared to all the corporate welfare that companies get and the GOP wholeheartedly approves of. That pretty much sums up the philosophy of the party, IMO. Give business all the breaks it wants and then some, but don't dare spend any government money on the individual.