Voting for Bush = stupid

[Zyanya]

I voted for Bush because I stood for the war (I still do).

Why?

We've been given five-thousand reasons why we supposedly went. Which do you support?

The vast majority of the original reasons were flat-out lies. So I am curious as to what your reason for supporting the war is?

The non-existent improvements in Iraq? The rise in terrorist activity? The replacing Saddam with someone just as megalo-manic?

And what's the difference between giving up our rights to keep our country free than giving up our rights so the government can hold our hands, wipe our noses & bottoms and give us free kool-aid to drink so we can think government sponsored programs (like welfare and "free" healthcare) are great and wonderful.

Which of my constitutional rights do I give up for welfare and/or healthcare?

Most people I've talked to think the President is stupid because of his accent. Southern accents, I suppose, aren't intelligent sounding. If Bush said the same things without that accent of his, would he still be stupid?

I have already addressed why I think he is stupid, and it's not his mispronunciations or his fake accent.

And if the Senate & House both thought Bush wasn't doing his job correctly, they could have tried, during either his first or second term, to impeach and remove him.

Attempts were made.

[IDrinkaRum]

#1. I believe the Iraqi people (those who are not in charge, the poor, the sick, the beaten & downtrodden) were the ones who needed us there. Saddam Hussein did need to be removed. We accomplished something. Something is better than nothing.

#2. How about the right to be a free thinking individual? A nanny state is not something we need. We don't need the government to come in and give us everything and we forget that we can be an enterprising sort of people.

#3. President Bush is from Texas. Texans have accents. Trust me. Both of my Uncles who were not born in Texas, but lived in Texas for about 20 years, have Texas accents. They are genuine. I lived in Omaha, Nebraska for 5 years, I have a Midwestern accent, that sometimes pops up in conversation. That is not fake.

#4. Attempts were made. However, the attempts were not successful. If I can remember, no actual articles of impeachment were successfully drawn up and voted upon. I stand by my assertion: If President Bush were truly as horrible a President as people think he was/is, the impeachment would have found a way to the top of the priority list.

[AFPheonix]

Bush is not from Texas. He was born and raised in Connecticut. He was a transplant there later. He's a blueblood through and through, as much as he'd like us all to think he's a hick.

As for impeachment, Nixon was impeached but resigned before he was forcibly removed. Not that impeachment means an automatic dismissal from office, it's more of an official rebuke.
Clinton was impeached over politics. Now, if he'd gone a different route, say one that he refused to tell the court anything about this business or even copped to it and told them to fuck off, as it was a matter between him and his wife, he wouldn't have opened up a loophole where they could get him for "lying" on the stand. Also, look at the differences between the Congresses at the time of Clinton's impeachment and the one we have now. The one then was overwhelmingly Republican and could do whatever they wished at that point. The one in Bush's first term was the same way. They sure weren't going to bite the hand of the party leadership. The newer congress doesn't have enough of a Democratic majority to get past Republican blockades of new articles of impeachment.

The Iraqi people needed far better planning and a much less ham-handed way to remove Saddam from power that would not have disturbed the power balance in the region and would have allowed them to keep better control over their country. The way the world handled Slobodan Milosovich was much more graceful. What we did by our ourselves in Iraq has been nothing but a forehead slapper.

I'm not sure why Iraqi poor, sick and downtrodden are more important than American sick, poor and downtrodden. A national healthcare system move us more towards a meritocracy if everyone had the same basic platform to start with. Not to mention the fact that we'd be unburdening small business owners and larger businesses from having to nanny our asses. Somebody's gonna nanny us, it may as well be someone we can vote out of office and doesn't hold our paychecks over our heads.

[Boozy]

#1. I believe the Iraqi people (those who are not in charge, the poor, the sick, the beaten & downtrodden) were the ones who needed us there. Saddam Hussein did need to be removed. We accomplished something. Something is better than nothing.

600,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed as a direct result of the US invasion. The GAO and numerous polls of the Iraqi people have consistently indicated that they are worse off now than they were before the invasion and occupation. Homes have been destroyed, basic services such as electricity and water is now unavailable in many parts of the country, their economy is in the dumps, crime and corruption are rampant, and they have no more freedom under their occupiers than they did under Saddam.

The Iraqis simply cannot afford any more of America's "compassion".

[DarthRetard]

The blame for Iraq doesn't start with America, if you know your history well enough, and I'm sure you do Boozy, as I know you're very well-read and intelligent. Not that we've helped anything, really, I'll admit.

Zyanya, I'd like you to get off Girly's back for voting the way she did. You can never tell what a politician will or won't do once they get in office, and often times it has to do with people they surround too. That was kind of the whole point of this thread, was that Mysty didn't like people jumping on Bush voters' backs. We don't really appreciate it, and we don't blast you for voting however you did.

You think when people voted for Nixon they knew he was going to pull Watergate? No, I really don't think so. So we may have made a mistake in voting for Bush the first time, ok. We made a huge one by putting him back in the second time, but only because we wanted consistencyin that current policy, to, or so we thought, minimize the chance of fucking up. Great, ok.

So now here we are four years later, and we get to choose again, how wonderful is that?

As for War Policy? Obama wants to pull all our troops out immediately, and I haven't heard much else otherwise from him as far as how we'd recover from that, in terms of domestic Iraqi affairs.

I'm not going to defend myself for voting for Bush, I shouldn't have to. I can change my mind, as we all can, and try to make things better for the future. That's the best we can do.

[Boozy]

Zyanya, I'd like you to get off Girly's back for voting the way she did....

I'm not going to defend myself for voting for Bush, I shouldn't have to..

If you don't want people challenging your political views and the way you vote, I would suggest not posting said views and voting record on a debate forum.

[DarthRetard]

Ah, let me clarify that. I thought this specific thread was more along the lines of explaining why we voted the way did, and that maybe challenging them could happen in a different thread? I just thought that was the point of the OP. If not, then, my apologies.

Either way, I could give two shits if someone wants to challenge my views, I know why I vote and think the way I do, and I have no problem answering it.

[Girly]

If you don't want people challenging your political views and the way you vote, I would suggest not posting said views and voting record on a debate forum.

I don't really care what people say or don't say about the way I voted. I also have no qualms in posting or otherwise letting people know who I voted for. I was overall agreeing with Mysty's original post where she said:

I don't go around calling people who voted for Kerry or Clinton stupid, even though I don't like their candidate or agree with their policies. The fact that because it's BUSH that's involved seems to suddenly make it okay just infuriates me.

And I agree with her that it's now the "cool" thing to do, and everyone is "ok" with it, so that must mean the act in itself is alright. I'm pretty sure that we can find plenty to debate about other than this. I am not, and will not get into Bush's politics, what he has/has not voted for, what he has/has not done that I agree/disagree with. It's the simple fact that some people think that I am "stupid" for voting for him that is irritating. Like I've said before, we all had our own reasons for voting for whoever we voted for, and just because we may not agree, it does not mean either party is "stupid".

[Boozy]

Ah, let me clarify that. I thought this specific thread was more along the lines of explaining why we voted the way did, and that maybe challenging them could happen in a different thread?

Meh. You know how threads drift. Maybe some members find it annoying, but I've found the most enlightening discussions here have been because of our willingness to get a little off topic.

You certainly don't have to defend your views if you don't want. You're free to say what you think and just walk away. But we can't criticize members for asking follow-up questions, as long as they are respectful.

[the_std]

Like I've said before, we all had our own reasons for voting for whoever we voted for, and just because we may not agree, it does not mean either party is "stupid".

I'm not sure if you meant "party" as "political party", or the people who have voted, but, while I agree that bashing people for having different opinions than your own is not right, a political party can be stupid.

[DesignFox]

For the record, I don't think Bush is stupid because he has an accent. I don't think anyone here said that.

I've listened to the man speak. My opinion has nothing to do with his accent.

Rum- Welfare and public assistance (I'll say again) are public insurance. I don't want my fellows who are on welfare or foodstamps to suddenly have to go without. That could be very bad for my well-being- not just theirs. Given a choice between starvation and stealing, many people would steal to feed their families. I like that our government has given people incentive to stay honest and do better for themselves.

If I'm not mistaken, in another thread, did you not mention that you qualified for some sort of assistance for your daughter? What would you do if that program suddenly became unavailable to you? What if it had never been available to you in the first place? (I'm not picking on you, just bringing up a point- My memory could be bad and I could be wrong...)

Anyway. I won't say that a person is stupid for voting one way or another. But I still can't help but wonder WHY anyone voted for Bush to start with, let alone helped re-elect him.

Sometimes, I think my friends and I should have moved to Canada like we pretended we would...

[Zyanya]

#1. I believe the Iraqi people (those who are not in charge, the poor, the sick, the beaten & downtrodden) were the ones who needed us there. Saddam Hussein did need to be removed. We accomplished something. Something is better than nothing.

What is this 'something' we accomplished?

#2. How about the right to be a free thinking individual? A nanny state is not something we need. We don't need the government to come in and give us everything and we forget that we can be an enterprising sort of people.

Agreed. That is precisely WHY I voted against Bush. I don't need someone to tell me Atheists aren't American because they don't believe in God, I don't need someone to tell me two dear friends have no right to love each other because the bible said so, and I certainly don't need someone telling me that I have no right to birth control. And as a small business owner, I want someone in office who has compassion for small business instead of only multi-million dollar enterprises that should be able to stand on their own and obey ethical laws.

Zyanya, I'd like you to get off Girly's back for voting the way she did. You can never tell what a politician will or won't do once they get in office, and often times it has to do with people they surround too.

Funny, seems Bush has done pretty much everything it was said he would. I wrote a post shortly after 9-11 predicting that we would A) invade Iraq without a decent plan and get bogged down with no hope of escape, B) end up with a massive national debt partly because of it, C) get something similar to the Patriot act, and D) end up with concentration camps (Guatanamo Bay). I was called a traitor when I made that post. Well golly gee wiz, damned if I wasn't right on all counts. The evidence was all there way back then for how we'd end up. I'm still shocked at how many people willfully ignored the evidence and continue to cling to the lies and half-truths to justify the terrible decisions made by the government of this nation.

If Girly is old enough to vote, she is considered an adult. That means she should be able to stand for and support her opinions. She chose to participate in this thread. I think most people who voted for Bush did so because they were willfully ignorant. I am willing to reconsider that if they can give me rational, logical reasons that are supported by evidence. Thus I am challenging her reasons to discover whether they originate in 'this is my genuine and reasoned belief' or 'this is what I was told to believe by my party so I do and so there'.

The blame for Iraq doesn't start with America, if you know your history well enough, and I'm sure you do Boozy, as I know you're very well-read and intelligent. Not that we've helped anything, really, I'll admit.

Actually, if you know your history, it really does. We created Saddam, armed him, gave him a huge playground and encouraged him to be a bully. Convinced him he was the biggest dog around and would not be called to account for his actions. Even when he was committing genocide on his own people with the weapons we were giving him. Then he went after Kuwait and suddenly we got all self-righteous and how dare he!

Seriously, who DIDN'T see that coming?

[Amethyst Hunter]

Funny, seems Bush has done pretty much everything it was said he would. I wrote a post shortly after 9-11 predicting that we would A) invade Iraq without a decent plan and get bogged down with no hope of escape, B) end up with a massive national debt partly because of it, C) get something similar to the Patriot act, and D) end up with concentration camps (Guatanamo Bay). I was called a traitor when I made that post. Well golly gee wiz, damned if I wasn't right on all counts.

I called it back in 2000 when some self-righteous teenager started in on me about How Much Better Our Savior Bush Will Be From The Satanic Clinton, and I flat-out told him "hell no I don't want that scumbag in office; he gets in and we're going to have another war." And this was BEFORE 9/11, and BEFORE I started learning about the horrors of Dominionism. It's scary to realize how instinctively I knew there would be bad trouble.

Even so, I was willing to give him a chance...and then 9/11 happened and we started finding out about all his dirty little deeds - did you know that on his very first day in office, his first official act as Prez was to reinstate Reagan's Global Gag Rule, which cuts off all funding to family planning centers worldwide which so much as mention the dreaded A-word? He made it clear he was declaring war on women, and he hasn't disappointed since. Hell, he's pretty much declared war on everybody, and these past 8 years prove it.

[IDrinkaRum]

At least Bush has declared war on our enemies. Barack Obama would have no qualms about invading the nations that are friendly to us. Obama also has no qualms about actually going into hostile countries and opening a dialog with them. WTF? How is that a good thing? Especially the invading/going to war with friendly nations? Where is everyone's self-righteous anger on that? Bush might not be a "smart man", but at least he knows his enemies from his friends.

[AFPheonix]

I'm not sure where the "invading our friends" thing is coming from. Care to share a credible link on that?
As for opening a dialogue with "enemies", hell yeah, dialogue away. How exactly do you think we got the Sunnis on our side in Iraq? How do you think a lot of decent deals have been made throughout history? Obviously our attempt at not talking to various groups has worked oh-so-well in Syria, Lebanon, and with the Palestinians to name a few.