Illinois Dream Act

[Andara Bledin]

and your point is...what, precisely? and when did i say that anyone should "know better?" all i'm saying is the help is out there for those willing to take the time to look for it, and make the necessary sacrifices.

Sometimes. And somestimes those funds are denied people who are in need because someone else who has been deemed "oppressed" is getting ti instead, despite a lower need.

the only thing she wouldn't have access to is this one scholarship, but she would still have access to thousands of other scholarships, as well as federal student aid, that the immigrants targeted in the bill don't have access to.

Why is there even a single scholarship that a legal citizen couldn't have access to?

How about we work on fixing the immigration situation so that there isn't a need for kludged together systems that create more new laws, more paperwork, more bureaucracy, more loopholes, don't help with the immigration issue at all, and which discriminate against those actually born here.

This is feel-good legistlation created by people who likely have never really had to worry where their next meal would come from and whether or not they might be shot so someone could steal their car that they've been sleeping in.

^-.-^

[linguist]

Sometimes. And somestimes those funds are denied people who are in need because someone else who has been deemed "oppressed" is getting ti instead, despite a lower need.

citation, please? i've never seen a single documented incidence where aid was denied to someone with a higher need level in favor of someone else solely because that person is a member of a formerly oppressed minority.

Why is there even a single scholarship that a legal citizen couldn't have access to?

How about we work on fixing the immigration situation so that there isn't a need for kludged together systems that create more new laws, more paperwork, more bureaucracy, more loopholes, don't help with the immigration issue at all, and which discriminate against those actually born here.

*sigh* seriously, did anyone actually read the article in the op? the act applies to children of immigrants. this includes those who were born here and thus are legal citizens. all that is required is that at least one parent be an immigrant, regardless of immigration status of the child or parents.

[Evandril]

i've been on my own since i was 17, and my first two years of college i went to school on scholarships, grants, and student loans while working 2 jobs to pay my rent and feed myself. my day was basically school, work, home to bed, wash, rinse, repeat. was it hard? absolutely. i never said it was going to be easy. but it can be done. it's a sacrifice i'm willing to make as an investment in my future. those unwilling to make the necessary sacrifices or do the necessary work have no place to complain that it can't be done.

seriously, it takes all of 15 minutes to fill out the fafsa, which then gives you access to federally guaranteed student loans, and if your friend is truly as bad off as you say, she'd almost certainly qualify for the pell grant, plus whatever need-based grants or scholarships are available at her school of choice. 15 minutes is all it takes.

Working two jobs is a *bit* hard in today's economy, when most people, doubly so college students, have a hard time finding one...Luckly, colleges have raised their rates to make it easier. She's got mulitple grants/scholorships she applies for every semester, or else she'd not be able to be in college at all..and even then, she needed student loans to cover the extra. Redoing the rules concerning financial aid so the are fair and viable across the board sounds like a far better idea than trying to take the limited money, and stretch it to cover yet another group...Doubly so, one that, in general, does not pay as much towards taxes as others in the same situation. One of my friend's big problems is her 'parents' income is counted against her applications for aid, even though they no longer claim her as a dependant, nor have they had anything to do with her life for multiple years before college.

[Evandril]

citation, please? i've never seen a single documented incidence where aid was denied to someone with a higher need level in favor of someone else solely because that person is a member of a formerly oppressed minority.

So someone who is in more need, but cannot apply for a scholorship due to their skin color is supposed to be documented how? I'd love to find the listings of 'People who would have applied, but didn't due to not meeting the qualifications' listed someplace at a university... The only way to show it would be to take the total people who applied for either, and see who was denied due to lack of money in the fund...and even that won't work, since anyone can apply for any grant/scholorship/fund a white person can, while we cannot apply for all that someone of race 'x' can apply for. I know when I was in college, it was rare for anyone who wasn't white to need a job to finish school, while it was the given for anyone white who didn't have full parental backing.

[linguist]

Working two jobs is a *bit* hard in today's economy, when most people, doubly so college students, have a hard time finding one...Luckly, colleges have raised their rates to make it easier.

once again, i didn't say it would be easy. but it's not impossible, either.

Redoing the rules concerning financial aid so the are fair and viable across the board sounds like a far better idea than trying to take the limited money, and stretch it to cover yet another group...

they aren't taking money from anywhere else and stretching it. there's no tax money going into these scholarships. they are private.

Doubly so, one that, in general, does not pay as much towards taxes as others in the same situation.

doesn't really matter, since the scholarships are private.

college students in general don't pay much into the system. most have no tax liability at tax time, and thus are refunded everything they've paid in. this is not the case for most of the illegal immigrants paying in.

One of my friend's big problems is her 'parents' income is counted against her applications for aid, even though they no longer claim her as a dependant, nor have they had anything to do with her life for multiple years before college.

and this is just wrong. if she's over 18 and not being claimed as a dependent, she should have independent status. if that's not happening, she needs to fight it. i had to when i started college for the same reason. once again, it's all about putting in the necessary work.

[linguist]

So someone who is in more need, but cannot apply for a scholorship due to their skin color is supposed to be documented how? I'd love to find the listings of 'People who would have applied, but didn't due to not me.

i don't know, but anecdotal evidence is not valid proof. you can make assumptions as to why one person was approved while another was denied, but unless you are part of the selection process and have all the information, you don't know why that occurred.

[Evandril]

i don't know, but anecdotal evidence is not valid proof. you can make assumptions as to why one person was approved while another was denied, but unless you are part of the selection process and have all the information, you don't know why that occurred.

So, unless I am on the selection board for a scholorship that is for *ONLY* members of 'x' race, I cannot say it was not given to a person of 'y' race for a reason other than their race? It seems fairly evident that a scholorship for 'x' race only is discriminitory, though if you can show me a flaw in that logic, please do.

The private nature of the other scholorships makes it far more acceptable, 'tis true...but the fact *I* believe the money would be better used on a broader scale is my problem with it. Am I going to say they can't spend their money as they feel fit? Nope, and I wouldn't want anyone blocking them from doing so, either...but I would love for them to use their money 'better' (IMO, of course). If someone wanted to make a scholorship for people with z's in their names, that'd be equally acceptable...Far more silly, but still their choice.

[Andara Bledin]

If these are private scholarships, then why is legislation required to set them up? Where is the money coming from?

^-.-^

[Glados]

To file as independent for FASFA you have to be at least 24 years old.

[insertNameHere]

A few posts up there, someone mentioned that illegal immigrants don't pay taxes. That's not entirely true. There are quite a few that do pay taxes and in fact, the IRS has set it up so that you can get a Taxpayer Identification Number to do so. Many illegal immigrants look at paying taxes as a back door way to become a legal immigrant. Also, if they draw a paycheck they end up paying taxes through witholding.

You make some assumptions. Like that employeers who use illegal labor are actually paying them min wage or paying taxes and doing withholding. I really think we need to fix the fact that if you jump the border and pop a baby out, the baby is a legal citizen. I can't think of any other countries that really allow this.


Also, at my university we had the Black, Asian, Latino student unions and multiple scholars for people of color, non-whites..... However, if I were to make a white male only scholarship to help people like me who have very few scholarships to apply for compared to minorities, I would likely be sued for being a racist. same goes for making the white student union, I mean if everything is equal and their is no discrimination coming from the Black Asian and Latino unions... why not the white student union. As soon as white male is an officially recognized minority, we are still gonna be fucked because of shit that happened 200 years ago and took no part in. and in all actuality, my family came from Germany, Ireland, and Italy Much later.... SO WTF!!!!!!

[Glados]

It is perfectly legal and acceptable to have scholarships and other opportunities for white males. Typically they are more specific and focused on national origin.

This country is founded on immigration. It is not a loophole that those born here are citizens. A child who has known nothing else deserves to not suffer for the sins of the parents. The dream act is focused on a group of people who still have a far more difficult time attending college than white students. They face discrimination and economic hardship in far greater numbers and extremes than average white students.

[BlaqueKatt]

So, unless I am on the selection board for a scholorship that is for *ONLY* members of 'x' race, I cannot say it was not given to a person of 'y' race for a reason other than their race? It seems fairly evident that a scholorship for 'x' race only is discriminitory, though if you can show me a flaw in that logic, please do.

which is why they actually don't exist... there's your flaw...

Over the last five or six years conservative watchdog groups like the Center for Equal Opportunity (CEO) have called universities like the University of Michigan, Southern Illinois University, and SUNY on the carpet for racial discrimination in their admissions practices. At question are the scholarships restricted to minorities. In response to the threat of legal action, all have revamped their “minority” and female-focused scholarships to include white students and males

[Greenday]

i've been on my own since i was 17, and my first two years of college i went to school on scholarships, grants, and student loans while working 2 jobs to pay my rent and feed myself. my day was basically school, work, home to bed, wash, rinse, repeat. was it hard? absolutely. i never said it was going to be easy. but it can be done. it's a sacrifice i'm willing to make as an investment in my future. those unwilling to make the necessary sacrifices or do the necessary work have no place to complain that it can't be done.

So you worked to get where you are today instead of getting there because of skin color or immigration status? Hm, not sure how this helps your argument.

[mikoyan29]

You make some assumptions. Like that employeers who use illegal labor are actually paying them min wage or paying taxes and doing withholding. I really think we need to fix the fact that if you jump the border and pop a baby out, the baby is a legal citizen. I can't think of any other countries that really allow this.

Yeah, curse that 14th Amendment. It's amazing how literal Conservatives are towards the Constitution until it doesn't suite whatever needs they have. Personally, I would be all for that provided it also includes all people that are born here. I forget the percentages but there are "Americans" that couldn't pass the citizenship tests.

And as far as illegals paying taxes....It's not an assumption on my part.

http://www.irs.gov/individuals/artic...222209,00.html

[Greenday]

It IS an assumption because when you say employers pay them minimum wage and they all pay taxes, you are factually wrong. There are plenty of employers all over the country who hire illegal immigrants, pay them less them minimum wage, and pay them under the table so taxes don't get involved.