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  • The atom bombing of Japan.

    Wasn't really going to bother making this, but the bombs keep coming back up in the other thread. And I do want to discuss this further to get a better view on the events.

    To start off, my perception of the events. The bombs were dropped on cities, not military bases or anything. The military didn't have a specific target, just a list of cities to choose from depending on the conditions when the plane was in the air and over Japan. Knowing this I thought that killing civilians, who were on the verge of surrendering, to save the lives of american soldiers was fairly despicable. I specifically say American soldiers because the government told everyone that unless the bombs were dropped, 800,000 more american soldiers would die. I thought that was questionable since japan was on the verge of surrendering and had their munitions and industries firebombed. However if those civiliians were trained and ready to fight as soldiers, that does cast a different light on the matter. I was not really aware of that until Pedersen mentioned it. So was killing civilians really the best way to go? What about a starvation blockade the navy was ready to do?

    I thought that the way the military also handled the bombings was suspicious. the first bombing was pretty much done in secrecy, but then on the second bombing they allowed a reporter to tag along and watch. I figured the reason for that was they were unsure of the first bombing and how people would react, but then they wanted to make sure their side of the story was told so they allowed a reporter to come on the 2nd run. Also the article itself seemed like a propaganda piece. (if I can find it online, I'll be sure to link to it.)

    I am starting to see how the bombing might have been needed to scare the Japanese people from fighting, but was dropping two bombs really necessary? Wouldn't just one have gotten the point across? The fact that two, different type bombs were dropped contributed itself to my suspicion that the military partly just wanted to experiment.

    Would a ground battle on Japan really have been inevitable if the bombs had not been dropped? I read that a starvation blockade was already prepared by the Navy, wouldn't that have done anything?

  • #2
    It wasn't done to save just our soldiers. What about the civilians who wanted no part of any of this? They'd simply be caught in the cross-fire. From what I understand, many people were prepared to fight to the death, and with any means necessary.

    Also, Japan was largely an agrarian country at that time. They were nowhere near as industrial as they are now. With that said, I'm not sure a starvation blockade would have worked...considering that rice is a staple of their diet. Sure, it might have cut down on the fishing, but that's probably it. Military blockades sometimes aren't successful--East Germany found that out when they attempted to starve out West Berlin...that fell apart because of Operation Vittles

    In the long run, I do think dropping the bombs has saved lives. After seeing all that destruction, nobody has had the balls to use nukes. Not only did it scare the shit out of people, but it also raised new awareness of the horrors of warfare...but also what people are capable of doing to each other.

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    • #3
      Not to mention the fact that a starvation blockade sounds pretty damn terrible. If I'm going to die no matter what, I'd rather be nuked and not know what hit me than slowly starve to death.

      I really hope our government wouldn't do something that terrible...
      "Children are our future" -LaceNeilSinger
      "And that future is fucked...with a capital F" -AmethystHunter

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      • #4
        Originally posted by DesignFox View Post
        Not to mention the fact that a starvation blockade sounds pretty damn terrible. If I'm going to die no matter what, I'd rather be nuked and not know what hit me than slowly starve to death.

        I really hope our government wouldn't do something that terrible...
        Lucky you aren't in Burma at the moment...

        As for the "I'd rather be nuked..." - you only get to say that now, because you know what it can do. Back then, they didn't (not the world population as a whole..).

        While I'm damn sure there were multiple motives going on, one that has managed to withstand the test of time is that no further nukes have been targeted against civilians since (and I'm certainly not a 'we need bombs to keep the world at peace' person).

        As Protege mentioned, starvation blockade wouldn't have done squat! Especially if you consider that the longer a war goes on, the less mouths you need to feed.

        Perhaps it was in reality, an means justifying an end, and the 'good of the whole' idea...

        Not everything will have a happy ending....
        ZOE: Preacher, don't the Bible got some pretty specific things to say about killing?

        SHEPHERD BOOK: Quite specific. It is, however, Somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps.

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        • #5
          The atomic bombing of japan was a very complex situation. The military leaders where expecting some severe resistance from the civilian population. Like was mentioned before the japanese population where making preperations to quite litterally fight to the last person in defense of their homeland.

          The propaganda the citizens where told was that american and allied soldiers where rapists, baby eating, evil creatures of darkness that wanted to destroy the entire japanese culture and people. Look at the way the defenders of Iwo and all the rest of the atolls and islands of the pacific reacted. Some garrisons fought to the last man. Heck some of them where staying and hiding in the jungle for years after the war ended rather than surrender.

          Now given how much trouble and pain and loss of materials and personnel the allies had getting the islands on the way to japan the thought of invading the homeland concerned quite a few of the leaders. The expected resistence was predicted to be quite extreme.

          Into that equation came the superbombs. A promise of ending the war with a single bomb being dropped on a single city. Remember the war in europe had already changed the attitude of civilian bombing. Civilians and the factories they worked at that produced goods for the war machine where declared valid targets. In the theory that remove the production capacity of the ball bearings that the tanks/planes etc...needed the tanks would no longer roll.

          So if by dropping a single bomb from a single plane ona single city the thousands to a million allied soldiers lives would be saved it was felt was a safe and acceptable tradeoff.

          Personally the atomic bombing of japan for the time and information available was a valid operational decision. One that I myself would probably have authorised if I had been in the position of Truman with his knowledge. Or at least the publically available knowledge of what he knew.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by DesignFox View Post
            Not to mention the fact that a starvation blockade sounds pretty damn terrible. If I'm going to die no matter what, I'd rather be nuked and not know what hit me than slowly starve to death.

            I really hope our government wouldn't do something that terrible...

            Are you sure you would rather be nuked? It is not 100% that you will be killed immediately. And if you are going to die slowly from radiation...

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            • #7
              The Japanese were fighting to the death. Dropping one atomic bomb didn't result in a surrender. Dropping the second bomb did the trick. It ended the war MUCH sooner than if we had done any other path. God only knows how long a blockade would have taken, if it would have worked at all. Maybe more people would have died from starvation than from the bombings. We don't know.

              All I know is, we dropped two atomic bombs and it worked. The war ended and wasn't dragged on any longer.
              Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else. The contrary opinion that violence doesn't solve anything is merely wishful thinking at its worst. - Starship Troopers

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Greenday View Post
                Dropping one atomic bomb didn't result in a surrender.
                Truman did not allow enough time for the Japanese to surrender before dropping the second bomb.

                They had a second bomb, could make more, and wanted the Reds to know it. That was the primary motivation for the bombing of Nagasaki. The war with Japan was over after Hiroshima. The US was looking ahead towards new enemies.

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                • #9
                  Well, let's see: Little Boy was dropped August 6, 1945, over Nagasaki. Fat Man was dropped August 9, 1945, over Hiroshima.

                  Japan surrended August 14, 1945.

                  I looked those dates up, expecting the timeline to be shorter than it was for the surrender, and longer than it was between the bombs. I found myself surprised.

                  So, Boozy, I think you're right. They should have waited longer before dropping the second bomb.

                  Just thought I'd put those facts out for anybody else that might need to go looking for them.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Pedersen View Post
                    Well, let's see: Little Boy was dropped August 6, 1945, over Nagasaki. Fat Man was dropped August 9, 1945, over Hiroshima.
                    Good info, although you've got the cities backwards; Hiroshima was August 6th, Nagasaki on the 9th.

                    Less than 72 hours between the bombings.

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                    • #11
                      Wait, wait, wait. Three days isn't enough time to surrender? They had radios. We had people IN Japan at the end of the war. They had more than enough time to surrender. They should have surrendered immediately.
                      Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else. The contrary opinion that violence doesn't solve anything is merely wishful thinking at its worst. - Starship Troopers

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                      • #12
                        I imagine that dealing with a crisis of that magnitude would make getting something as complicated as a surrender of an entire country a little interesting, especially in less than 72 hours.

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                        • #13
                          I'm sure we would have accepted an unofficial surrender and not bombed them a second time in a heartbeat.
                          Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else. The contrary opinion that violence doesn't solve anything is merely wishful thinking at its worst. - Starship Troopers

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by AFPheonix View Post
                            I imagine that dealing with a crisis of that magnitude would make getting something as complicated as a surrender of an entire country a little interesting, especially in less than 72 hours.

                            especially since the terms of surrender were to also turn over all arms at the time of surrender-and all radios would have been rendered useless from the EMP----nice wiki article here for that
                            Registered rider scenic shore 150 charity ride

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                            • #15
                              The EMP felt from the first bomb wouldn't have knocked out every radio in the entire country though. Only in a certain affected area.
                              Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else. The contrary opinion that violence doesn't solve anything is merely wishful thinking at its worst. - Starship Troopers

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