Today is a dark day in the USA (wolf hunt)

[draggar]

The wolf hunt has begun in Idaho and soon in Montana.

All because a politician who heads the congressional hunting committee decided to add taking wolves of of the endangered species list as part of the "debt reduction plan".

To all the wolves who will be wounded, maimed, and/or killed today, please do not blame all humans. Many of us support your right to live.

And, I wish to apologize to them, too. We did not do enough to change our "elected" "officials" minds.

[Akasa]

I tried, I called my elected officials, I wrote my elected officials, my elected officials are just a small number.

[mikoyan29]

The folks out west have been trying to get wolves off the endangered list almost as soon as they were put on the endangered list. Never mind that predators serve an important role in the ecosystem. And since humans aren't very good at being predators, we need some proper predators....

At least wolves had a shot at the endangered list....they are still debating about the wolverine.....

[draggar]

Senator Jon Tester (D - Montana) and Mike Simpson (R - Idaho) and this was added into the bill as a rider.

Also, Jon Tester is the chair of the Congressional Sportsmen's Caucus - I call this a serious conflict of interest.

I wish the line item veto was still around.

[mikoyan29]

I don't think the sportsmen have as much to do with this as the ranchers. For some reason, they don't like the handful of animals that get killed at the hands of wolves. If it were a big problem, I'd say I can't blame them but it doesn't sound like it is all that big of a problem.

For as maligned as the Endangered Species Act is, I rather like it because I think that it is nice to see animals in the wild rather than just in a zoo or picture book. I mean the eagles in the zoos are cool but they do not compete with the ones I see in the wild.

[AdminAssistant]

The Endangered Species Act has quite a few problems. Remember that episode of Bullshit! where a woman bought a property intending to build a house on it...only to be told she couldn't because a handful of a particular species of bluebird or something decided to nest there. Sorry, that's bull. And I do think ranchers should have the right to defend their lives and property.

[Nyoibo]

Can they actually be hunted, or is it just that they can be shot if they're on someones land harassing livestock?

Makes a big difference.

[mikoyan29]

The Endangered Species Act has quite a few problems. Remember that episode of Bullshit! where a woman bought a property intending to build a house on it...only to be told she couldn't because a handful of a particular species of bluebird or something decided to nest there. Sorry, that's bull. And I do think ranchers should have the right to defend their lives and property.

For it's "problems", it is a pretty good act. Hell, I remember 20 years ago thinking that I would never see an eagle again in the wild. Now they are getting to be fairly plentiful. And seriously, with all the space available to build, why would someone want to build somewhere where it is fairly wild?

As for the ranchers, I agree with their ability to defend their lives. One of the provisions of the wolf thing is that if their livestock is attacked, they can get compensation.

[AdminAssistant]

It's been a while since I've seen the episode, but it was in a residential area.

[draggar]

Can they actually be hunted, or is it just that they can be shot if they're on someones land harassing livestock?

Makes a big difference.

Idaho and Montana both have the grey wolf as a "trophy hunting" status meaning you can go out and kill one just so you can have it stuffed.

Wyoming is calling it "management".

Ranchers have always been able to protect their herds and there are many non-lethal ways of doing it. Donkeys (and mammoth donkeys) are great, fladry and fences work very well, too (even better if they're electrified).

They're also far less of a threat than ranchers claim they are - read up on Dr. Adrian Treves (University of Wisconsin) and his reports - they're a real eye opener on the "threat" wolves pose (or lack thereof).

[mikoyan29]

It's been a while since I've seen the episode, but it was in a residential area.

And sometimes the ESA gets abused by NIMBYists. A while ago, Ann Arbor was in the process of building a new school. The school district happened to own some land that they bought years ago. Unfortunately, this land was in a fairly well to do area. The folks that lived there were fighting tooth and nail to keep this high school out. Even went as far as to dig up a salamander that isn't even native to Michigan. I suspect the same in this case.

[Kheldarson]

Here's a National Geographic article from last year about this issue: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20.../chadwick-text

I thought the before and after drawings of Yellowstone were the most striking evidence for why wolves were a good thing though.

[BlaqueKatt]

I thought the before and after drawings of Yellowstone were the most striking evidence for why wolves were a good thing though.

it's a complete ecosystem-balance.

[Hyena Dandy]

I always try to see both sides of an argument. Usually, people are so set on one side that they won't see the other has a point.

And while I totally understand where people are coming from, they're wrong. Wolves are not hurting people. Yes, they'll hurt livestock, sometimes, but a gun will keep out the wolves when you're watching. A fence will keep them out even if you're not.

Besides, I think people see so many wolves, in books, TV, movies, that they don't notice there aren't a lot in the wild these days. The image of the wolf is so common we don't notice that we're not seeing ACTUAL WOLVES.

I understand where people are coming from, but there aren't really a whole lot of wolves out there. The ones that are out there need to be protected, not hunted. It would make sense to have them hunted if there was an overpopulation problem, but there isn't. If there were too many wolves, I'd be all for hunting them. But there's far too few. So...

Yeah. Don't shoot wolves.

[draggar]

Here's a National Geographic article from last year about this issue: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20.../chadwick-text

I thought the before and after drawings of Yellowstone were the most striking evidence for why wolves were a good thing though.

There are a lot of studies out there done by reliable sources (Yellowstone, Wisconsin Beef Information Center, etc.) that prove most of the pro-wolf hunt arguments are not valid and some are even exaggerated.

I always try to see both sides of an argument. Usually, people are so set on one side that they won't see the other has a point.

And while I totally understand where people are coming from, they're wrong. Wolves are not hurting people. Yes, they'll hurt livestock, sometimes, but a gun will keep out the wolves when you're watching. A fence will keep them out even if you're not.

Besides, I think people see so many wolves, in books, TV, movies, that they don't notice there aren't a lot in the wild these days. The image of the wolf is so common we don't notice that we're not seeing ACTUAL WOLVES.

I understand where people are coming from, but there aren't really a whole lot of wolves out there. The ones that are out there need to be protected, not hunted. It would make sense to have them hunted if there was an overpopulation problem, but there isn't. If there were too many wolves, I'd be all for hunting them. But there's far too few. So...

Yeah. Don't shoot wolves.

There are many non-lethal methods to keep wolves away from livestock. Two of the most effective are also two of the oldest - donkeys (or mammoth donkeys) and fladry (and fladry is even more effective when the fladry is slightly electrified). Both are also easily moved.

Shepherds (as in dogs) have also proven to be effective.

I'm OK with reasonable management but what has been proposed is beyond management - it's a slaughter. A news story came out yesterday about a hunter bragging that he killed two wolves - an adult female and a female pup. Hmm, did he kill mother and daughter?

Education is extremely important. We grow up reading about the three little pigs and little red riding hood. Yet, we never hear bout the Blackfoot tale about the Wolf-Man. Why is that? Our media paints wolves as vicious and evil creatures (werewolf anyone?) but rarely in a good light.

The movie "Alpha and Omega" comes to mind as one of the minority stories and I am making sure my young nephew gets a copy of this film to watch.